A demonstrator leaps into the air as he pummels an effigy of President Bush (news – web sites), below, during a protest against Bush’s policies during a visit by the president to Boston, Thursday, March 25, 2004. On rival John Kerry (news – web sites)’s home turf, President Bush defended his record on both the jobs and terrorism fronts on Thursday and prodded the Massachusetts senator against taking his own state for granted at a $1.2 million fund-raising dinner in Boston. (AP Photo/Steven Senne)
15 comments
You know, I’m not all that fond of John Kerry’s policy stances at all, but I cannot say I hate the man or wish ill will on him at all. The senator and I just disagree on many things, but that doesn’t make him any less a child of God than me or anyone else. When people turn politics into personal hatred, it flies in the face of what a democracy should be.
The type of furor depicted in this photo should be reserved for the most vile of dictators/killers (i.e.-Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot), and not for typical, garden-variety politicians, which Bush and Kerry both could be labeled.
A little perspective, people!
Which one is the dummy? I can’t tell
I was in England during a protest against the Iraq massacre (that the Pope condemned–and was led by Bush the current baby killer in office). The most popular sign was “Bush–World’s #1 Terrorist”. I agree.
I hate the guy, I detest him, but jumping on him is only as obnoxious as some of the dumb things I see people doing to defame Kerry.
They both suck, Bush sucks a bit more IMOP. My brother who is a Traditional Catholic priest and a Franciscan, also agrees with me. My whole family all 12 siblings were raised traditional Catholic, thus we unlike most Catholics today, learned about Catholic teaching in its fullness. Saying Bush is any better than Kerry only comes from ignorance of authentic Catholic teaching on both life and social issues.
I wish more people read the Catachism, unfortunately they don’t and misrepresent Church teaching.
FollowTheChurch asks people to, well, follow the Church and “read the catachism [sic]”, and yet he finds nothing wrong with detesting and hating a fellow image of Christ?
Does he know his catechism, I wonder?
FollowTheChurch,
The war in Iraq was never condemned by the Pope. The Bishops in the US also never said such a thing. Why do people keep stating such a lie? The Pope had serious reservations about the war and wanted to make sure the all diplomatic efforts were carried through. He is not supposed to be the war cheerleader for any nation and his actions were appropriate, just don’t put words in his mouth.
I believe that Catholics can disagree about the need for war in Iraq without calling each other heretics or evil. I myself have serious reservation as to whether that war satisfied just war teachings. I tend towards the side that the war in Iraq was necessary but I am not dogmatic about it. I also believe that just war theory also needs to be revised with a look at terrorism since it mainly is a guide for wars conducted by heads of states.
To call Bush the #1 terrorist is beyond stupidity. When has Bush ordered the deaths of civilians so that countries will change their policies. The problem with the majority of anti-war activists is that they are not advancing serious arguments. War for Oil. Haleburton is the reason. Bush is Hitler. These proponents do nothing for their case by such stupidity.
Radical Islam is the number one terrorist threat not Mr. Bush. Those countries that bend and allow terrorism will only get more of it. For eight years we had increasing escalating attacks against the U.S. here and overseas. This ended with 9/11 and our response had done much to discourage and break up terrorist networks. The world is safer now that Libya saw our tough response and ended their weapons programs. If you want to say that Bush and people who would have appeased radical Islam are the same and then you are not advancing a serious thought process.
True you can’t compare Bush to Kerry. Kerry voted against the fetal-homicide bill. He would rather allow baby murderers to get away with their crime then to allow any infringement for the abortion lobby. He to totally pro-abortion in all circumstances. He would work to allow the 3000-4000 children murdered everyday in abortion clinics to continue. I don’t think Bush is a very fervent pro-lifer, but he has done more for the cause than any president in history. Kerry would be a total reversal.
FollowTheChurch,
The Pope never once said the war in Iraq was immoral or did not meet just war theory. Some functionaries in the Vatican came closer to making such claims. Don’t just point me to the Vatican’s web site. If he said such a thing give me the quote and a reference. Otherwise do not continue that lie. The Bishops “serial questions” is again not an outright condemnation.
RU-486 was approved in Sept of 2000 during the Clinton administration who gave it fast track approval like cancer drugs. Where is Bush’s statement “that he supports massive distribution” of the morning after pill? Probably the same place as the Pope’s condemnation of the Iraq war, it doesn’t exist. If you are going to make statements, back them up with quotes and URLs. Since you thought that Bush approved the Pill that the Clinton administration actually did you need to really look at the underlying facts before detesting people.
Would I truly be appalled if Democrats had voted to outlaw partial birth abortion, pass the fetal murder law, work to ban cloning, not give direct money for new embryonic stem cell research? Yet this is what “baby murderer” bush has done.
You need to drop your hatred to see more clearly. I track over a hundred and fifty blogs and nowhere do I find the atmosphere of republicans first, Catholics second. There has been much criticism of the presidents actions on many issues or that he didn’t work as fast as he could on pro-life actions. Many Catholics in St. Blogs are like Mark Shea who do not hold up Bush as the Messiah or that his policies are infallible.
Any time you find someone who makes the statement “pure blood 100 percent faithful to the Catholic Church” you find a fanatic who thinks that they are the only ones truly following the faith. There are many aspects of the Catholic faith that can be prudential matters. When you are judging someone on these issues, you are judging their conscience and their will. That is something that we have no ability to do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/2605367.stm
http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/25/pope/
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030113-043853-6715r
http://www.cathnews.com/news/303/124.php
http://www.cathnews.com/news/302/121.php
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80875,00.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0223-09.htm
http://middleeastinfo.org/article1763.html
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/092002/092002f.htm
A minimul list of websites to show the Popes position on the war. Yes, the Pope condemned it, last year at Easter he preached against it. Those who say otherwise are lying. Shame, to misrepresent what the Pope says.
What scares me about the current atmospher of fanatical Republicanism among certain American Catholics is they will even turn their back to the Church and the truth lying to themslves and others, to defend their religion of Republicanism.
Be Catholic first, find out what the Pope says and follow it.
And if I have hatred in me please pray for me that God save me from it. As the father of 6 children I have no room for hatred, I want all my little ones to grow up to be saints (Catholics who stand strong in their faith and can see through the brainwashing of modern day society and Republicanism).
So yes, pray for me I am not perfect but IT IS NOT BECAUSE I FOLLOW THE CATHOLIC FAITH, thus not being a Republican.
FollowTheChurch
You have failed to prove your case.
The first and third link referred to this statement: “Without naming countries, the pope said efforts for peace were urgently needed “in the Middle East, to extinguish the ominous smouldering of a conflict which, with the joint efforts of all, can be avoided.” This is not very accurate to use this generic statement as a condemnation of war in Iraq.
The second link was about Saddam’s capture. The rest of the quotes were from Cardinal Martino. Again what does this have to do with the Pope’s statements.
The fourth link the Pope said that war in Iraq must be “the very last option”, again not a total condemnation and even opens the way for action.
The fifth link was more generic and the Pope said that “war, like in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity”
The sixth link said: “The Holy Father expressed hope that, in solving the grave situation in Iraq, every effort is made to avoid new divisions in the world,”
The seventh link referred to “War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy:” This was from an address to diplomatic corps and talked about all war, not just what was pending in Iraq.
The eight link the Pope asked that people fast about the danger of war and problems occurring in the Middle East.
Again there is not one statement pacifically condemning as immoral the war in Iraq. Two statements even said that war must be the last option. Prudentially we can disagree as to whether this was the last action after after 13 years of fruitless diplomatic outreach to Iraq. So you tell me I am lying but the very proof you offer refutes you. It can even be argued that the statements the Pope made did not turn out to be very prophetic. The middle east is not a firestorm because of the war. Soon Iraqis will be voting for their very own government. Libya has abandoned their weapons programs. Overall the middle east is safer than when that killer thug was president of Iraq. No more the sounds of people being killed by industrial shredders.
I vote Republican not because they are right on every issue, but a vote for Democrats at the national level is always a vote for abortion, a vote in support of communist dictatorships, a vote for euthanasia, cloning, stem cell research, gay marriages, acceptance of homosexual acts, radical feminism. If Republicans voted more along the GOP charter this would be a good thing. If Democrats vote along the Democrats charter this is an avid support of abortion. Nothing in the world kills more people than abortion. Where are the pro-life Democrats at the national level, can you name one?
If I have misrepresented the articles you gave me then give me a specific quote by the Holy Father condemning as immoral the Iraq war.
I will pray for both of us that we not be blinded by political leanings but hold always true to our faith. I think this is the reason I will not vote Repubican in this election, my deep sadness over so many of my fellow Catholic�s turning their backs to Rome because of Political ideology. Last election I did vote for Bush. I probably will not vote at all in this one since I have found Bush to be not only anti-life but immoral in other regards and Kerry isn’t much better than him.
I actually can’t believe there are Catholics who don’t know the Church’s position on the Iraq war. The only explination I can find is that they let political ideology blind them. Quotes from articles:
The capture of Saddam Hussein may help bring peace to Iraq, but it does not change the fact that “the war was useless, and served no purpose,” a top Vatican official said.
http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/
Bishop Wilton Gregory : �Our conference’s moral concerns and questions, as well as the call of the Holy Father to find alternatives to war, are well known and reflect our prudential judgments about the application of traditional Catholic teaching on the use of force in this case. We have been particularly concerned about the precedents that could be set and the possible consequences of a major war of this type in perhaps the most volatile region of the world. Echoing the Holy Father’s admonition that war “is always a defeat for humanity,” we have prayed and urged that peaceful means be pursued to disarm Iraq under UN auspices. http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/stm31903.htm
War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations” (Address of Pope John Paul II to the Diplomatic Corps, 13 January 2003). http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030219_migliore-security-council_en.html
Pope John Paul, in his first public comment on the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq, said on Saturday that the war threatens the whole of humanity, and that weapons could never solve mankind’s problems.
“When war, like the one now in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim, with a firm and decisive voice, that only peace is the way of building a more just and caring society,” he said.
The Pope, in a speech to employees of Catholic television station Telepace, added: “Violence and weapons can never resolve the problems of man.”
The Pope led the Vatican in a diplomatic campaign to avert war, putting the Holy See on a collision course with Washington and its backers in the Iraq campaign. http://www.cathnews.com/news/303/124.php
VATICAN CITY, Jan. 13 � Pope John Paul II today expressed his strongest opposition yet to a potential war in Iraq, describing it as a “defeat for humanity” and urging world leaders to try to resolve disputes with Iraq through diplomatic means.
“No to war!” the pope said during his annual address to scores of diplomatic emissaries to the Vatican, an exhortation that referred in part to Iraq, a country he mentioned twice.
“War is not always inevitable,” he said. “It is always a defeat for humanity.”
Wondering aloud what to say “of the threat of a war which could strike the people of Iraq,” he added: “War cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option, and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.”
The pope had previously articulated concerns about an American-led attack on Iraq, most notably on Christmas Day, when he beseeched people “to extinguish the ominous smoldering of a conflict which, with the joint efforts of all, can be avoided.” But in those instances, his message was largely implicit. He did not refer to Iraq by name, and his words were not as blunt. http://middleeastinfo.org/article1763.html
One more good article I just found.http://www.cathnews.com/news/210/27.php
Vatican reasserts opposition to war in Iraq
The Vatican renewed its opposition to war in Iraq on Wednesday, saying military action would only make matters worse and that a pre-emptive strike raised serious ethical and legal problems.
“It’s unilateralism, pure and simple,” the Vatican’s UN observer, Archbishop Renato Martino, said in comments published in the Italian newsweekly Famiglia Christiana.
The principle of a “first strike” as well as its possible use in Iraq “provoke profound reservations be it from the ethical or legal point of view,” he said.
He recalled the Vatican’s opposition to the 1991 Gulf War, saying: “Everyone knows the way it turned out. War doesn’t resolve problems. Besides being bloody, it’s useless,” he said.
The Vatican’s foreign minister has said the United Nations must authorize any military action in Iraq and a papal adviser has warned against the “unacceptable human costs and grave destabilizing effects” of a preventive strike.
Okay, sorry sorry for going on. But I found this also interesting,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_government_positions_on_war_on_Iraq
Vatican City
The Roman Catholic Church took a firm stance against the U.S. plan to invade Iraq. Pope John Paul II’s Peace Minister, P�o Cardinal Laghi, was sent by the Church to talk with George W. Bush to express opposition to the war on Iraq. The Catholic Church says that it is up to the United Nations to solve the international conflict through diplomacy. This war, and indeed most modern wars, do not satisfy the just war requirements set by St. Thomas Aquinas and other theologians. The method of total war, sometimes called terrorism (i.e. any non accidental attacks on non combatants, or civilian infrastructure), used in most modern wars since the Civil War and which were used in Iraq, are not permitted. The Church was also worried of the fate of the Chaldean Catholics of Iraq, that they might see the same destruction as happened to the Churches and Monastaries after the war in Kosovo. The person in charge for the Relations with the States, Archbishop Jean Louis Tauran, said that only the UN can decide on a military attack against Iraq, because a unilateral war would be a crime against peace and a crime against international law. The Secretary of State of the Vatican indicated that only the United Nations Security Council had the power to approve an attack in self-defense, and only in case of a previous aggression. His opinion was this was not the case and that an unilateral aggression would be a crime against peace and a violation of the Geneva Convention. [21]
The only thing I have ever heard about the Church not opposing the war was from Republican-Catholics, who feel defensive any time Bush is mentioned. The Bush first Catholic second mentality, that really bugs me.
FollowTheChurch,
Again quoting Vatican officials who are notoriously anti-american does your case no good. You re-hatched the same quotes by the Pope which showed his valid concerns about the war. But there was no outright condemnation of the war as being immoral.
It is very strange for Cardinal Martino saying that the first Gulf war solved no problems. Tell that to Kuwaiti citizens who are free and did not continue to suffer under Saddam. No diplomatic relations were ever going to make Iraq leave Kuwait. Some officials currently in Vatican would probably have let Germany during WWII keep on escalating. Christianity is not a pacifist religion. The feast day of Our Lady of the Rosary came about because of a military victory over Islam in the major sea battle of Lepante. It truly appears that at that battle Our Lady interceded for the battle to go against Islam. Is she also a Republican-Catholic?
How can they say the UN is the only one to decide what is valid when the same UN does forced sterilizations and promotes abortion. They don’t even use just war theory to decide on what could be legitimate. There is no Catholic doctrine about the supremacy of the UN and there never will be. The UN excuse is an argument that has zero validity in Catholic teaching.
The Pope also had misgivings about the first Gulf war. A case where Iraq invaded another country and committed countless atrocities. Yet that war met every level under just war theory. I mentioned to you before that I am not wholly on the side that the current Iraq war was just. Yet you keep saying that I choose Bush over the Church. The justness of the war is a prudential matter and one person might come to another conclusion than another based on the information available to them. To say that someone who disagrees with your prudential judgment about the justness of the war and that they are evil is something you have no right to.
The majority of what you call Republican-Catholic blogs have never been a rubber stamp for Bush on any issue. There have been plenty of disagreements over the war and over pro-life issues.
I would just like you to see that your position is not dogmatic and other Catholics in good conscience can disagree with you without being disobedient to the Church or labeled as Republican-Catholics.
Even if the Pope came out against the war 100%, it’s his private opinion as a theologian, and should be taken into account by Catholics; but it’s not binding. A Catholic could faithfully disagree.
I can not vote for Kerry because of his anti-live (or should I say pro-Moloch) stance.
Oh, and back on your original comment on Bush being a Terrorist. Terrorists target civilians to cause, well, terror. The US Military doesn’t target civilians. The only thing that ‘Bush is a terrorist’ does is cheapen true terrorism.
“Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favour of the Apostolic (See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton), must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. “Sincerely in Christ-God, John Michael Borean (Most Reverend), a sinner, bishop
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0MKY/6_27/111012341/p1/article.jhtml
Byzantine Catholics in Ohio were told by there bishop was a mortal sin.
Jeff,
You may be very right, I am no theologin, and I do not know if Catholics can ligitimately support the Iraq war. What I do know is it is always dangerous to oppose the Pope. I would be very careful and very hesitant to do so, in any situation. Personally I do not think I would ever publically do so (contradict the Pope). He is our spiritual leader and guide, he also is much more knowledgable in spiritual matters than I am, I would prefer to always be humble and accept his opinion.
If you as a Catholic feel you are gualified to disagree with him, and know enough to publically contradict him, then perhaps it is okay.
I can not make that decision for anyone, but I do find it strange when the Vatican is so loudly speaking out against something, that so many US Catholic’s would side with their government/country first, and publically say the Pope is wrong.
Again, I am only a sinner and a small Catholic, I am nothing compared to his Holiness Pope John Paul II who I love and admire. I will never in my life take a public stand contradicting him. What others do is their buisness and for God, not me to judge them.
I’m not a Catholic nor am I a Republican, but I can tell good from evil and any Christian, Good Moral Person, or just a plain Good Ol’Boy with half a brain can tell that the Democratic party is being controlled by principalities in high places. I think history has taught us that some of the so called popes have caused more death and misery than Bush ever thought about. I wonder if was found out that the present pope had some molested boys in his skeleton closet if our democratic catholic friends would still support him. Of course they would.
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