Totally concur with what Julie at Happy Catholic wrote on his passing. I reread a couple of his books last year to come to realize they were even better than I remembered and that I had grown in being able to appreciate them better. He is certainly one of the authors that elevated Science Fiction by his talent. The genre did not limit his writing ability and he expanded the genre instead.
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Alas no peace for Ray, his views on religion:
“My religion encompasses all religions. I believe in God, I believe in the universe. I believe you are god, I believe I am god; I believe the earth is god and the universe is god. We’re all god.”
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,2012734,00.html#ixzz1x2SZi2BW
That doesn’t sound like he accepted Jesus as his personal savior at all, he certainly wasn’t Catholic so right now he’s being tormented in Hell forever and ever by your loving god.
Oh well.
oh salvage your grasp of theology, and contents of the christian heart, is obviously boundless. please grace us more with your wit.
I will choose not to judge this man, as I will never know his intentions or his faith.
So… I’m wrong? Someone doesn’t need to be Catholic, perform the Catholic rituals, believe the Catholic beliefs to enter your god’s grace?
It’s weird, every time I point out that your religion teaches that your god throws people that doesn’t believe in it into Hell its believers act as if I’ve just made it up!
Yet they never actually say I’m wrong.
Yes or no, believe in and love Jesus go to Heaven, disbelieve and reject go to Hell? Isn’t that the nut of it?
nope, not the nut. some people who call themselves catholic have been badly educated, you want the truth you will have to actually do some reading, i doubt you will believe me as well.
So, someone who doesn’t believe in Jesus can go to the same Heaven as someone who does? Can you show me what to read that would explain that because everything I’ve read suggests pretty much the opposite. I’ve also heard many Christians agree with what I’ve said. Why are we wrong?
the catechism, in general, is a great place to start, but, like the bible, you can take one passage and make it mean a lot more than its meant too, or a lot less. The catechism must be read in context, so no one passage can answer your questions. I would suggest the first chaper of the first section in the third part, its not a long chapter. 3,1,1. its a good start.
Yeah I’ll read it but I’d like to hear you answer to my questions if you have one.
Sorry, I can’t find it can you click here:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
And then post the link of what you feel is the relevant bit?
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a1.htm
and my answer would just be a poor paraphrase of the catechism. but, most christians have a horrible education, the church is not a private school we cannot hold back poor students, we do not expel slow performers. most understand what they personally have to believe but have no idea how convey that to nonbelievers. i hope you won’t hold that against us, most do.
Great, thanks!
Okay let’s break that down as or at the very least remove the gobbledygook. It’s weird that your god can’t make itself clear.
1710 “Christ . . . makes man fully manifest to man himself and brings to light his exalted vocation” (GS 22 § 1).
Jesus makes you better at being a person.
But there are good people who have never heard of Jesus so that can be said of any god.
1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).
People are free to be good just like your god and your god has made it possible.
In the Bible you have your god doing things that are clearly not good from ordering genocide to murder.
Why does your god contradict itself? That’s something true things never do.
1712 In man, true freedom is an “outstanding manifestation of the divine image” (GS 17).
People are free just like your god is.
1713 Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil” (cf. GS 16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.
People are free but they have to do good things because their conscience tells them so.
1714 Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.
Because Adam and Eve were tricked by Satan / a talking snake into eating a magic fruit that your god left in a place where they could eat it and so must have known it was going / wanted it to happen people do bad things.
See this is where it really falls apart, you have this myth that your religion thinks is true and if it is, well it means your god wanted all of this awful stuff to happen and bizarrely blames it on us!
And that makes sense to you?
So even if your god is real it’s clearly insane.
Anyway, here’s the important bit:
1715 He who believes in Christ has new life in the Holy Spirit. The moral life, increased and brought to maturity in grace, is to reach its fulfillment in the glory of heaven.
People who believe that Jesus was real and a god (or demigod) will go to heaven when they die.
Okay, so this catechism confirm my first contention, that the only way to Heaven is by believing in your god and I assume performing the rituals that your religion demands.
Says nothing about Hell but Jesus sure hints at it pretty strongly here:
John 15:1-7
King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
I’m sorry, what was that Jesus? Burn what?
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Ah. So people who don’t believe in your Jesus should be gathered up and burnt because we are dead sterile things.
Hmmm, sounds like it’s Hell for me to me.
There we have it. Either you believe in Jesus and Catholicism or your god will throw you into fire for the crime. For some bizarre reason you lot view this as “free will” rather than extortion or terrorism. I suppose there’s an element of Stockholm syndrome to theism.
And why would an all powerful god have to resort to such thuggery to get love and respect?
It wouldn’t, a real god would do no such thing.
My original point stands, your god has thrown Ray Bradbury into Hell because he was not a Christian, did not accept Jesus or the Holy See. You can’t let that sort of thing slide otherwise your religion’s main selling point is severely debased.
Too bad Ray! Doesn’t matter, your literary contribution to humanity, you didn’t eat a cracker and drink a glass of wine and thought that it turned into human flesh because of magic words! That’s why you’re “cast into the fire, and are burned” and certainly not “Requiescat in Pace”.
my bad, i posted the wrong link. i meant
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#I
i will wait to respond to that one.
No, I don’t think this one is on point at all, it seems to be all about conscience nothing about your god throwing people into Hell for not believing in it as the last one clearly was but I will break it down anyway and see.
1795 “Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths” (GS 16).
Your god knows your conscience.
1796 Conscience is a judgment of reason by which the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act.
People know right from wrong because of their conscience.
1797 For the man who has committed evil, the verdict of his conscience remains a pledge of conversion and of hope.
Because everyone feels bad about doing bad things, even bad people we can always hope they will be better.
This is an interesting philosophical point and there are countless accounts of it being true but I don’t think it applies to all. There are some people that are just the wrong mix of crazy and stupid who will do awful things and never think about them again.
I wonder why your god makes people like that? Oh, right, Eve ate the magic fruit, not your god’s fault at all.
Save it made the magic fruit, put in a place where Eve could eat it and let the talking snake sneak in to convince her to do so.
1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.
Everyone’s conscience is just as good as the god that made it.
This of course, once again, ignores all the horrible things your god does in the Bible. I don’t think your god has never solved a problem without violence, (if I’m wrong please show me) so no, it clearly has a rather warped idea of right and wrong.
1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
You can either do the right thing, which is what your god wants or you can do the wrong thing.
So, my next door neighbor is bad does that mean I should drown them or blow up their house? That’s your god’s approach.
1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.
Ah, if only life were so simple as to allow for such absolutes! For instance your employee raped a child, you could either call the cops and have him arrested and the child taken care of by medical and therapeutic professionals or you can pay them $20,000 do they’ll quietly go away saving your business the scandal. What to do?!?!
Yeah, you trot out rules about conscience from the Vatican and I’m going to go there, not much of a choice as my own conscience feels strongly that raping children is wrong and that needs to be made clear to those who seem a bit confused about the rights and wrongs of the matter.
1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
Just because you don’t know that you’re doing wrong that doesn’t mean you’re not doing wrong.
Sure and I assume that applies to the whole condemning everyone who isn’t Catholic to Hell thing? As in it’s wrong not to believe in Jesus so when I’m thrown into Hell my excuse of “It makes no sense!” will be of no use.
1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.
If you don’t believe in my god you will become evil and thus be thrown into Hell.
Yeah, problem with that is the word of your god was the “light” for the path of Europe for about 1,500 years and that history is rife with evil and men of zero conscience. So clearly the word of your god is no such thing.
So once again, your religion teaches you that unless you are a Catholic your god is going to throw you into Hell for being evil.
Right now all over China, India and the Middle East people are being born only to burn in Hell for the crime of starting life in the wrong culture. But as 1801 and 1802 make clear that’s no excuse.
Or is there another set of catechisms that say something the opposite? I wouldn’t be shocked if there was after all religion has never let self-contradiction stop it from masquerading as some sort of truth.
its interesting that you read something that I just read but your version means something completely different. I was referring to this passage :
“1793 If – on the contrary – the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. ”
i would suggest 1790-1794 in specific.
and you might see it as opposite, because you are coming at it from the wrong direction.
And so that means that no one needs Jesus to get into Heaven? That not believing in Jesus is ignorant and evil? That Ray Bradbury is not in Hell for rejecting your god?
You can just answer yes or no to these questions as you can’t seem to locate a catechism that applies.
Salvage, your entire approach has been wrong. The original post did not “canonize” Mr. Bradbury; it noted his passing with sadness and praised his writing. “Even the pagans do as much,” and there’s no reason that Christians should withhold praise for things that the dead person did actually do, which were actually good. Beyond that, unless the dead person is a notorious sinner, there is no need to speak ill of the dead. Generally, we entrust the non-Christian dead to the mercy and justice of God.
However, you felt the need to not only speak ill of the dead, but to cast him into eternal fire without even waiting for the end of the world. You are not the Judge of all things; you are not qualified to make such pronouncements.
As for the rest of us mere Catholic mortals, this is what we’ve heard:
“And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel. And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Those of us who are in communion with Mother Church must work hard to pass through the narrow door, and try to evangelize our ignorant or dissenting neighbors. But we must also pray for all the dead and ask for mercy upon those who need it most, because if we scorn mercy we will have none given to us. Your zeal for the Lord is not wrong; but the way you are going about it is a danger to your own soul and to those of others. Ask the Holy Spirit to grant you temperance and prudence.
Jesus died for our sins, wheather or not we wanted him too or not, that fact can’t be changed. His sacrifice is what gets us into heaven. I am aware of these events and therefore I have a responsibility to believe certain things and to act a certain way. The more I am aware of, the more that will be required of me. Those people who have less information available to them will have less expected of them. Those people who can not grasp the concept get a free pass, children and those with mental issues. Those who have never heard of Jesus also get a free pass.
We do have free will, I have the choice to reject the sacrafice. If I do so with the full consent of my will (holding a gun to my head negates it) and being fully informed (if my only information on Jesus is that of a spanish baseball player) then I knowingly reject God and make the choice to abide for all eternity outside of his presence.
We cannot know what the mental state of this author is. We can’t know what he really knew or believed about Jesus. We have no right to assume he rejected the sacrafice of Jesus, regardless of some quotes. watch the evening news and see how one liners are taken out of context.
This is how it works to the best of my knowledge, but I am a self educated Catholic, I would suggest you read more of the catechism to get a better idea.
>Jesus died for our sins, wheather or not we wanted him too or not, that fact can’t be changed.
No, he didn’t die, he came back to life three days later right? So that’s not death, that’s like a coma, your god spent three days in a cave for our sins.
Death means you lose everything, you don’t get to come back and say goodbye to your friends and family then fly off to heaven to rule.
So big whoop to that “sacrifice” I’ll cheerfully sleep for three days if that means I get to be a god.
> His sacrifice is what gets us into heaven.
So your god “sacrificed” itself to itself so it could do something that it could have done anyway?
See that’s the problem, you have this all powerful god that has these bizarre arbitrary rules that it imposes on itself. So it can’t let people into heaven unless it comes down to the Earth and “kills” itself? Why would it need anything to do anything? That’s one of the nice things about being all powerful, the only rule is there are no rules.
> Those people who can not grasp the concept get a free pass, children and those with mental issues. Those who have never heard of Jesus also get a free pass.
Really? So Heaven is full of people like you, young children, the mentally iffy and so people like me, who have heard of Jesus and reject it because it’s clearly a myth go to Hell? Doesn’t matter what kind of person I am, because I can’t set aside logic and reason I’m doomed.
Which still makes your god a jerk because it made my brain, it put me in a context where my intellect could come to no other conclusion.
What about other Religions? Like Muslims, they believe in your god and Jesus far more than I do yet they will still be in the same fiery pit as I. They like you had no choice but to believe in their god their way.
Shame we weren’t born with mental defects, then we could be safely atheist or other!
At any rate it’s clear that Hell is bursting at the seams and Heaven as populated as a “Cop Rock” convention.
>We do have free will, I have the choice to reject the sacrafice. If I do so with the full consent of my will (holding a gun to my head negates it)
But isn’t that what Hell is? A huge gun that your god will shoot people forever and ever who don’t believe in it with.
.
>We cannot know what the mental state of this author is. We can’t know what he really knew or believed about Jesus.
I’m sorry, did you not read the quote? It was not taken out of contest (please!) Have you not read the man’s books? He was not Christian so yes, we can assume he rejected the “sacrifice” of Jesus so he is in Hell. If only he had set aside his own beliefs and followed your god unquestioningly!
>This is how it works to the best of my knowledge, but I am a self educated Catholic, I would suggest you read more of the catechism to get a better idea.
I have read the ones you pointed to and that coupled with Jesus own alleged words makes it clear, you “abide” him or you get burnt up.
That’s your religion’s whole purpose, to save people from your angry god who is punishing people for behaving exactly as it knew they were going to behave. This is of course madness on all kinds of levels, it’s truly bizarre you refusal to see that.
If a government behaved as your god does it would be condemned by the world and history and it certainly would not be the subject of worship save for a sick or terrified people.
>No, he didn’t die, he came back to life three days later right?…
jesus was tortured and degraded to an extent you might never understand before his spirit was made to leave his body, that is death, a true death. this was no joy ride. ccc 624
>So your god “sacrificed” itself to itself so it could do something…
The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was not for the benefit of God, it was for the benefit of man, it is the only sacrifice that we would accept to remove the guilt of our sins. Jesus said to us “Your sins are forgiven” but thats not good enough for us, we needed the sacrifice. CCC 614
>Really? So Heaven is full of people like …
we are sinners, we are all guilty of disobeying the commandments of God (or of original sin) we all deserve to be cast aside, never to be allowed to abide in God’s presence. you, me, the pope, muslims, new born babies… all of us. God, through his infinite love has decided to forgive us of our transgressions. We need only to accept his forgiveness.
>Which still makes your god a jerk because it made my brain…
so you are physically incapable of changing your mind?
>What about other Religions? …
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity”
>At any rate it’s clear that Hell is bursting at the seams…
clear to you, neither I nor my Church judges people as harshly as you do.
>But isn’t that what Hell is?…
hell is an eternity seperated from God, knowing he exists but never experiencing his love, and it is completely voluntary.
>I’m sorry, did you not read the quote?
RB uses words like God, Jesus, and religion but neither you nor I know what his understanding of those words are
>I have read the ones you pointed to…
It appears to me that you lump all chirstian denominations and their teachings together, I would suggest that you learn the differences and that just because somesone calls themself a christian doesn’t make it so.
>jesus was tortured and degraded to an extent you might never understand before his spirit was made to leave his body,
Yes, regular people are never tortured or degraded! Nope, doesn’t happen every single day for the last 10,000 years or so. You do know the Romans nailed up other people right? What you may not know is that crucifixion was hardly the worst way they could do you, the Romans were masters of inflicting pain on anyone who annoyed them.
Furthermore Jesus had ONE bad day, people dying of cancer can suffer for months if not years.
>that is death, a true death. this was no joy ride. ccc 624
And regular people don’t die? Jesus had an extra bad death? At any rate he’s a god isn’t he? Not like he would suffer PTSS.
Three bad days vs. a whole infinity of universe ruling. A bargain at half the price.
> The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was not for the benefit of God, it was for the benefit of man,
And the benefit has been what?
> it is the only sacrifice that we would accept to remove the guilt of our sins.
Huh? How does Roman beating and killing a single man do any such thing? This is beyond voodoo thinking.
And bizarrely you don’t seem to understand that there has been no change in mankind before and after your god’s “sacrafice”?
> Jesus said to us “Your sins are forgiven” but thats not good enough for us, we needed the sacrifice.
What need is satisfied here? Your god thirst for blood? That’s crazy enough but what make it more weird is it’s its own blood!
> we are sinners, we are all guilty of disobeying the commandments of God
Like to have no other gods before it? Yet humanity did! For thousands of years the only ones who worshiped your god was a tiny tribe of desert savages. While worshipers of Zeus were building cities and figuring out the size of the Earth they were chasing sheep and slaughtering other desert tribes.
>(or of original sin)
Yes, the whole goofy thing with the magic fruit, apparently because your god made sure that Eve ate a fruit we’re all bad!
That makes so much sense it hurts my brain.
> we all deserve to be cast aside, never to be allowed to abide in God’s presence.
Yes, your perfect god made horrible, horrible people. Once again it’s weird how your god doesn’t seem to get much right.
>you, me, the pope, muslims, new born babies… all of us. God, through his infinite love has decided to forgive us of our transgressions.
Decided to forgive us for Eve eating something it could have prevented her from eating and for making us as we are.
That’s might big of it!
>We need only to accept his forgiveness.
For its screw-ups? I’ll do that for clients but that’s part of the service.
>so you are physically incapable of changing your mind?
Outside of a lobotomy? Yes.
I can’t decide to believe in your god(s) because I have explained ad nauseam it doesn’t make any sense. I could no more think Jesus real and his “sacrifice” significant then I could believe that dragons run around the New York subway system and that Charlie Sheen is living a healthy lifestyle.
Facts! That’s what I’m talking about, your religion has a shortage that cannot be ignored.
>What about other Religions? …
> It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity”
Ah yes, splashing people with magic water makes your god like them more. You do know that ritual is pure Pagan Roman right? That it originally was made to gods like Janus.
But I get the loopy hole that makes your god seem slighly less insane; if you have a really good excuse like you never heard of Jesus that’s the same as having prayed to Jesus every day.
But if you’re like me, perfectly aware of Jesus and rejecting it as superstitious nonsense well your god is going to torture me forever and ever! Exactly what “unconditional love” is all about!
> clear to you, neither I nor my Church judges people as harshly as you do.
Really? Once again, I direct you to Jesus words about abiding and dead wood burning. I also direct you to historical data which makes clear that Christians in general and Catholics in particular are minorities, sizable to be sure but still there have been more Muslims and Hindu and others.
>hell is an eternity seperated from God, knowing he exists but never experiencing his love, and it is completely voluntary.
Oh it think there’s more to it than that, after all your myths are built on the backs of older more vicious myths and they talk about Hell has being far more.
But hey, it’s your religion, you get to pick and choose.
>RB uses words like God, Jesus, and religion but neither you nor I know what his understanding of those words are
Awesome! He said something very specific and clear and you’ll go all “Uncle Leo” and insist that the professional writer was unable to make himself clear! Denial, it’s such a reflex with you I would guess you don’t even notice it anymore.
>I have read the ones you pointed to…
> somesone calls themself a christian doesn’t make it so.
Actually it does. Your religion is like clay, you can mold it and shape it in an infinite number of ways but if I see a cross and a guy nailed to it, well it’s Christian. You’re exactly as Christian as Hell bound Protestants, Mormons, Coptics, Arians, Greek Orthodox, Jews for Jesus and the dozen or so other sects.
I know, I know, they’ve all got it wrong, you’ve got it right, lucky you!
But odd thing is, they would say the exact same thing, once again a flaw in your god’s perfect plan.
>, and try to evangelize our ignorant or dissenting neighbors.
Yes, that’s what your Roman fore-bearers did, with a sword usually, with some rape and pillage.
You’d think if your all-powerful god were real it wouldn’t need mortals to spread its message but weird thing is your god has never been found anywhere in places that didn’t believe in it.
I wonder why your god never bothered with the peoples o North and South America, Africa, Australia and the Far East?
One early theory held that your god made them for Christians to enslave and they did! Bible approved and everything.