…but I’m still puzzled by the fact that, after 40 years of pro-abort zealotry from the Democratic party, some Democrats are just now leaving the party–because of gay “marriage” and the HHS mandate. Those things are bad, of course. But it’s still weird to me that somebody could go for decades watching the spectacle of Dems passionately defending sticking scissors in a baby’s brain and then suddenly say, “But gay marriage? That’s crossing the line!” It makes me wonder how such people process information and make moral evaluations. Glad to see they are abandoning any organization committed to these “core values”. But it doesn’t fill me with too much confidence that they are necessarily going to bring moral wisdom to whatever political home they wind up in (assuming they wind up anywhere, since a lot of us are politically homeless and alienated from the worthless circus of American politics). (Mark Shea)
I had similar thoughts when I read some of these stories from those who left the Democrat Party. Considering all the moral straws that have been piling on the proverbial’s camel back you think this must have been one strong mutant camel with a backbone made of titanium. But with Mr. Shea I am happy to see them realize the truth and pray more do the same, especially as an ex-Democrat myself and one who also had a high-resistance to reality.
25 comments
>Dems passionately defending sticking scissors in a baby’s brain
Once again a clear view of the situation unencumbered by rhetoric or hyperbole.
no, just the facts
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with your view of those leaving the Democratic party as somewhat limited morally. There was a time when the Democratic Party stood for the grass root values of the USA and people were proud to belong to it. It was their home, so to speak. Perhaps those who lingered on were trying desperately to change the views of their fellow Democrats. What a brave battle that has been.
Some of us still belonged nominally to the Democratic party, but long ago realized we were voting for candidates from the other party more and more. However, the “other party” is hardly a perfect fit either. I finally changed my registration from Democrat to Republican long after I had stopped voting for Democrats. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done. I almost needed a bucket with me in case of necessity.
I still mourn for what could have been if Ted Kennedy, with all his influence, had been on the pro-life side for all those years he was in the Senate.
We have to pray for the priests who influenced the Kennedy clan so strongly. You’re right, N.L., neither party encompasses Catholic social teachings. I often judge that rep. only put on an anti-abortion face to be the other party. They certainly don’t seem to truly understand what being pro-life entails. That said, one simply cannot vote for rabidly pro-abortion canditates who are blase about all aspects of abortion – up until birth!
>no, just the facts
No, abortions do not involve stabbing babies with scissors, anytime a doctor has to do that operation it’s usually because something has gone horrifically wrong with the delivery and it’s to save the woman’s life.
Which is weird considering the whole reproduction thing was “designed” by your loving god. It used to go wrong a lot more before people stopped praying and started used medical science but it still can be risky.
Or do you really think women who want to have abortions put it off before the last trimester? Like they keep forgetting? “Oh, right, abortion… well next week.”
Or perhaps you’d rather the woman die? After all it’s part of your loving god’s perfect plan, who are we to interfere?!!? Also Eve so all women are evil anyway.
See it’s important that you keep these caricatures alive so you don’t have to give the issue any real thought.
There’s an essay by George McKenna, professor of political science at City College (New York) titled “Criss-Cross: Democrats, Republicans, and Abortion” which addresses this very issue. I have a print copy but don’t believe it is available online in it’s entirety any more. There’s a good review that covers the basics of it at First Things.
As for Ted Kennedy, NiceLady, he declared himself to be against
abortion in the early years of his senate career, but when Roe v. Wade
was handed down and abortion became the central plank in the
Democrats’ platform, he switched his principles. I don’t think
he ever publicly offered a set of reasons for abandoning his previous
opposition to abortion. If I had to guess, I’d say it was just a matter
of political expedience– for the only things that man was ever
truly committed to were his own political career and his continued
access to good scotch.
As someone who “crossed the line” in the 90’s, I note that we do so when we’re ready. Personal life events are independent of the change in parties corporately, so, the last remain the first, etc. I love Akin’s quote; “since a lot of us are politically homeless and alienated from the worthless circus of American politics.” Yep. My leaving the Democrat fold is not to say I’m a Republican in the same way I was a Democrat.
The democratic party was the party of the working man, now it’s the party of special interests. Kennedy would have been more in line with the republican party of today. The dems do lean hard to side of death to children and they want us to pay for it as well. But what we need to remember is that you can put dems and repubs together in a meat grinder and all you’ll get is a 20 # sack of dog food.
And as dear Salvage will pontificate and try to change the context of the post, we should ask him what is his party affliation in Canada. Is it Conservative; New Democratic; Liberal; Green; Communist; Marijuana; et al.
>Kennedy would have been more in line with the republican party of today.
Sorry, you spelled Nixon wrong.
And yes! I changed the context of the post by copying and pasting and section of it and commenting!
I tend to vote NDP if the candidate isn’t too much of a dip and Liberal if they are and the Liberal isn’t an idiot and if the Liberal is an idiot for whatever independent loonies that doesn’t have a chance so at least they’ll feel a little less of a loser.
But boo to those Green parties! Trying to prevent pollution and encourage sustainability! Don’t they know that there is a god that will never ever let anything bad happen to the planet? Just pray to it and everything will be fine and if not well it’s just it’s will, can’t argue with that!
Salvage, I remember a previous message you left and that I had wanted to reply to, but didn’t. Perhaps now is the time. It’s rather long, but be patient with me.
Salvage,
We’re not against you in your quest for knowledge and truth. To pursue these things is honorable. Mankind has sought these things from the very beginning. Every person is raised in a certain ethnic, spiritual, cultural, etc., way. So it’s not surprising that our wonderful species is so diverse in its outlook on life. We have each asked our Who, What, Where, When, and Why’s. The first four of those seem to be satisfied by experiment or experience, ours or others.
The Why, however, seems to pull even more firmly on our need to seek that which is beyond ourselves. The pursuit of “Why”, then, subsequently includes all the W’s in one search for that “something more” that we as humans sense with a deep longing.
For some of us seekers, the sense of the “something more” is a “Someone More”, an Original Cause for all that is. Thus, we as Christians believe that this Someone More, for which our whole being yearns, is God.
How would such a supreme being reveal itself? We believe He did it slowly over the years of human development, gradually revealing about Himself what we, who are truly of this earth and of dust, could understand. As an awesome foundation to our understanding, God revealed to Moses the Name by which we could begin to understand Him — I AM WHO AM. And finally, in an act of love so far beyond our reasoning and understanding, He came to be one with us and to show us how we can become one with Him forever. This is our belief.
Jesus taught us about God’s love for us and how we can share that love with others, so we try to love as He loves us. We even love you, Salvage! So, when you mock our beliefs, it saddens us. Could you, instead, join with us on that journey which all humans take – to seek that Something More – however differently we may understand that for which our hearts and minds seek with an indescribable yearning?
>Thus, we as Christians believe that this Someone More, for which our whole being yearns, is God.
Yes, that’s pretty much it, you yearn for something and you’ve decided that you’ve found it despite the obvious truth that there is nothing there to be found.
>We believe He did it slowly over the years of human development, gradually revealing about Himself what we, who are truly of this earth and of dust, could understand.
No, your god’s “revelation” are not understandable, from the Old Testament to the New none of it makes any sense outside the context of mythology and superstition.
>And finally, in an act of love so far beyond our reasoning and understanding,
It’s not beyond our reasoning or understanding, it’s pretty simple really: Your god sacrificed itself to itself so it wouldn’t be wrathful at its creation for behaving exactly as it knew it was going to behave.
Of course that doesn’t make any sense but like I said nothing about theism ever does.
But please, tell me my abstract of Christ’s “sacrifice” is wrong, tell me what I’ve missed.
>Jesus taught us about God’s love for us
And that’s why Christianity was spread through war and genocide from Italy to England and from Spain to the Middle East? What a curious species of love. You know that right? Christianity was not spread by peaceful love but hateful war.
Once again, your theism does not match the facts.
You don’t “love” me, that’s pure nonsense and one of the ways your religion makes you feel superior, that you have this unconditional love for everyone just like Jesus! Well you don’t, you’re a human being with the same foibles and discrimination of affections as the rest of us. If you “love” me then your love is debased if not worthless as you give it to everyone for any reason.
I don’t mean to make you sad but what you believe to be real makes no sense and if you truly think I am wrong about that then why don’t you read the history of your religion? Start at ancient Rome and work your way up the the Reformation Wars and after that tell me about this Christian love you seem to think real. History paints a rather starkly different and bloody picture.
>History paints a rather starkly different and bloody picture.
It’s interesting where you stopped; The Holodomor, the Gulag, Mao’s “cultural revolution,” Pol Pot’s killing fields, to name a few. Thanks for the history review; civilization without God is even more murderous.
>It’s interesting where you stopped; The Holodomor, the Gulag, Mao’s “cultural revolution,” Pol Pot’s killing fields,
Yes, that’s because those are part of Christian history!
I love it when theists do this, you point out some horrible bit of their religion’s history and then they talk about OTHER people doing horrible things as if that somehow that makes a difference to the main point which is this:
You claim your god and your religion are “loving” yet the history shows that simply is not so. The Reformation wars? Are you aware of them? The body count? The cause and effects? I know apologists like to declare that these wars were purely political and nothing to do with Jesus except for the fact that the lines were clearly drawn between Protestant vs. Catholic with atrocities on both sides.
>Thanks for the history review; civilization without God is even more murderous.
Really? Is that a fact now? Let’s look at our modern world, let’s look at the countries with more religion vs. those with less, tell me, what do you think we’ll see?
> Yes, that’s because those are part of Christian history!
OK, so you’re not serious. Noted. Pure trolling/stalking; very creepy.
ahahah! Yes! I am a creepy troll stalker for pointing out that the point you brought up is completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Theists! The twists and turns you will make to avoid giving your religion even the slightest of critical thoughts never fails to delight and amaze me.
So, to summarize; your religion purports to have a god that is loving, good and peaceful yet it only expanded its influence with hate, evil and war! Not just to non-believers, Christian history is rife with “Blue on Blue” violence, even in the very early days from North Africa to Italy there was schisms and bloody conflict as a result.
Tell me, in your Bible does your god ever solve a problem without violence?
Salvage,
God is good and He loves us and wants us to love others as He taught us. That we turn away from His will for our happiness and hurt others in the process is to our sorrow and history has shown this as you have said. Still, many good people keep trying to get it right. Maybe one day all of us, believers and non-believers WILL get it right.
And you’re wrong, Salvage. I do love you. Love is an act of the will, not just that of feelings, and I choose to love rather than hate.
See ya! 🙂
>God is good and He loves us and wants us to love others as He taught us.
And that’s why the Roman Empire, various crusades and inquisitions killed anyone who wouldn’t convert.
>That we turn away from His will
So it wasn’t your god’s will for Christianity to spread over the planet through war? Why not? The Bible makes it clear that your god loves war and doesn’t mind killing to get its way.
How come your god’s plans never work out? For an all-powerful being it sure screws up a lot of stuff or at the very least lets its stuff get screwed up. Why can’t your god do anything right?
>Still, many good people keep trying to get it right.
Like you? What are you doing to “get it right”? Praying to your god while the Holy See avoids responsibility for child abuse? While they spread lies about condoms in Africa? While your Pope sits on a gold throne figuring how to get out under of the latest bank scandal while people starve and live in poverty?
That’s one of the hysterical things about Catholics, you’re ruled by clearly corrupt institutions while pretending that it’s all good.
>Maybe one day all of us, believers and non-believers WILL get it right.
Oh we are, over the last 300 years religion has lost much of its power and in the last 50 atheism has had a sharp increase, church attendance is down and every year religion is mocked more and more.
>And you’re wrong, Salvage. I do love you.
Words are wind, it takes no effort to say such things, prove it.
Here’s a charming story of your Christians love in action:
“Early in the morning of Saturday, February 19,1600, several hooded members of a group known as the Company of Mercy and Pity (also known as the Company of Saint John the Beheaded) went to the Nona Tower, the secular prison across the Tiber from the holy prison of Castel Sant’Angelo, and there they took charge of a man. Placing him in a simple wagon, they set off to the Campo dei Fiori, the Square of Flowers, down the cramped streets and through the square that had housed Domitian’s stadium.
“During the slow ride over the stones, Jesuit and Dominican priests mumbled their imprecations to the prisoner for a last-minute recantation of his awful beliefs, inviting him to express contrition for his sins, lest he be lost forever in eternal damnation as a heretic. They offered him icons to kiss and presented him with tablets, painted with images of Christ and the Holy Virgin and even the pope, whom the prisoner had called a triumphant beast. But the heretic’s jaw was clamped shut with an iron gag, a long spike piercing his tongue, and another spike stuck in his palate. He would not be able to say to these minions or excite the crowd with the words he had uttered to the greatest intellectual of the Catholic church, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine: ‘I neither ought to recant, nor will I. I have nothing to recant, nor do I know what I should recant.
http://www.malcontentsgambit.com/2012/06/11/the-burning-of-giordano-bruno/
Gonna read it all? No, of course not, I’d be shocked if you made it this far. You guys aren’t interested in facts and certainly nothing that would shake your firm belief that your god is good if not his mortal conduits.
But this story is true and not unique by any stretch, this is what the Holy See used to do and would still be doing if not for secularism, science and laws free from superstition.
@salvage: you might get more traction from our Protestant bro’s & sis’s at faithfreaks.com. give em a try.
@salvage: actually, don’t go there. they have the same boring arguments…..kinda like we do here! LOL!!
Salvage,
I’m not sure how I can prove love, but let’s just say I am a wonderful combination of my mother and father, and try to love others as they did in their own unique ways. My mother was Catholic and my father was an Atheist.
>I’m not sure how I can prove love
You can’t because you don’t, you just stay that stuff because you think it makes you a better person and or Christian. See that’s what theism is, pretending to be something or connected to something that isn’t real.
>but let’s just say I am a wonderful combination of my mother and father,
I’m sure you are, lots of people are that doesn’t mean you unconditionally love everyone, no one does because that would be as crazy as hating everyone unconditionally.
I could die tomorrow and if somehow you found out would it devastate you? Would my passing leave a hole in your life? A wound on your psyche? Doubtful. I “loved” Ray Bradbury and it’s sad that he’s dead but his passing wasn’t like my mothers, that’s how you know what love is, when the absence causes a unique pain that only time can heal.
When my mother died, one of the cards I got had this saying, which I am very fond of. I may not get it exactly correct since I am doing it from memory.
“We should so live in this world that, when we die, our memory will be blessing and our loved ones can say, ‘We will remember her life in the concert hall of memory and laugh, with an overbrimming joy, that a dear one lived bravely and lovingly once upon a time.’ ”
Let’s talk again sometime, Salvage. Be happy.
NL
Sure, that’s a beautiful thought and something everyone should strive for but we can only achieve such an effect with our closest friends and family. That intimacy is what gives love its precious and rare value, if it was for everyone it would be debased.
That’s not to say we should spite people we don’t know or be indifferent to their lives and value, the bell tolls for us all, but unconditional love to everyone is hollow at best.