Tom at Disputations asks “What the hell is the matter with Republican Catholics?” Because both parties have their favorite intrinsic evils that must be supported with few exemptions on either side. When the party faith collides with the Catholic faith we get another “Catholic” politician and another “Catholic” faithful who defends the politician as to why an intrinsic evil is not really an intrinsic evil.
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1) I believe waterboarding properly qualifies as torture.
2) The Magisterium has made no such declaration; we can, at this point, have an intelligent discussion on the matter. I’ll think you’re wrong — much in the same way I’ll think your support for the application of the death penality in the modern era is wrong — but I won’t think you’re a bad Catholic. Perhaps I’d go so far as to say that you’re fooling yourself, but I wouldn’t question your sincerity in terms of seeking what is good.
3) The Magisterium has ruled definitively on abortion. If you’re a Catholic who supports abortion, I’ll think you’re a bad Catholic. Not based upon my mere determination of what is true, but by the Church’s ruling on the matter.
This is why there’s essentially no moral equivalence between Catholics who support abortion and those who support “enhanced interrogation” techniques.
Agreeing with Tom, it’s easy for me to shake my head and scoff at those who disagree. It seems obvious, to me, that this is torture.
But I must temper that criticism with the knowledge that the Bride of Christ has not condemned them as being in error religiously, and neither should I.
I’m not, after all, the Magisterium.
It’s a matter of proportionality. Faced with the alternative of voting for one politician who permits a procedure where a person believes that he is going to drown but will not suffer physical harm and voting for a politician who pushes for a procedure to dismember and kill innocent children in the womb I guess I would have to go with the former.
I just hope that I am not seeing Catholics trying to use waterboarding as an excuse to vote for pro-abortion politicians.
Also, how many waterboarded individuals are we talking about? 1,500 a day? That’s how many kids are being killed each day.
3) The Magisterium has ruled definitively on abortion. If you’re a Catholic who supports abortion
Yes, but as we saw with the St. Joseph hostpital case with Bishop Olmsted, they argued that since the Church hasn’t specifically declared that Dillation & Curettage is an abortion, then Bp. Olmsted was out of line when he revoked the hospital’s Catholic status for performing and abortion. It’s always the appeal to finer detail, so even if the Church declared waterboarding torture, that would not end the debate, because there is waterboarding, and then there is waterboarding. That waterboarding is torture can be demonstrated by history, law, and intuition. I’ll listen to an argument that it is not torture as long as it is not one of these that has not been dismantled time and time again.
“have been”, not “have not been”
Scott W.: Excellent point. Thanks for making it.
Of course, St. Joe’s argument was a poor one, since abortion is anything which directly leads to the death of a fetus.
But with waterboarding, it’s not so cut and dry in terms of the debate, which is why I don’t give it the automatic, strong condemnation I do something like abortion.
For abortion, application is rather easy: “if you do x to produce effect x, then you have a bad moral act.” Action-based ethics is very handy this way. But when we get into application for concepts like “human dignity” and “fear,” things get much more complicated.
To be fair, I dunno that the Church has really categorized ONE SINGLE THING as torture; certainly the ole battery to the body is torture, and yet no one would disagree that this is torture despite the fact that the Church hasn’t outright condemned it. We know it when we see it. But with waterboarding, it took me a while to come around to the other side on this debate, and while all the well-meaning Catholics out there who support it may be in error, they’re not yet heretics.
I give credit to the blogosphere for making this issue an important one for consideration in the AmChurch. At the same time, however, I’ve seen a lot of odium theologicum over an issue that hasn’t been completely explored by the mind of the Church.
In the end: if we write the Congregation for Divine Worship over the most inane liturgical practices, I don’t believe it’s too much to expect a specific ruling in this area.
I think that illustrates my point: other than “The Church hasn’t explicitly said waterboarding is torture” is literally all the pro-waterboarding side has, and that’s on the Catholic end. Minus the Catholic, and waterboarding literally has no leg to stand on. That’s pretty thin gruel. Dump the support for waterboarding, it’s a loser.
I guess some love to waterboard this and that and what I say is if that’s their thing go for “IT” but be careful that you don’t swallow too much water cause I have heard that spiritual waterboarding can be a LOT of fun but “IT” is just not my cup of Time Horton Coffee if you know what I mean? 🙂
Look guys and gals, the way I see our Catholic Church is that “IT” was started after Jesus Died for U>S (usual sinners) and was carried on by The Holy Spirit who feasted on The Apostles of Christ and His Blessed Mother and any other invited spiritual guess who might have been present at that time. For whatever reason(s) I’ve heard that they were all very scared and I’ve even heard that in reallity, they’ve even locked their doors.
I’ll close by saying that we know in our heart what is right and/or wrong so let’s keep praying and hope that these so called Christians don’t swallow too much water and we can be waiting for them with the help provided to U>S by God and His Angels before the evil sharks eat them alive.
Alright NOW! The “ONE” without sin will please cast the first stone! 🙂
God Bless Peace
@ Victor: Wow, that was almost intelligible. What side of the question are you on?
@ Curt: The waterboarding thing reminds me very much of the argument in our little sector of the web over “Lying For Jesus”, and how many people went to the Catechism to appeal to finer detail. Same thing with Bp. Morris of Toowoomba and his explanation for why he ignored Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: “He didn’t say ‘infallible’!” If you gotta work that hard to find some grounds for exception, then admit it: you’re wrong. The Church shouldn’t have to produce an exhaustive concordance of particular sins with annual updates like an Encyclopedia Britannica of evil.
Resolved: waterboarding is torture, torture is wrong. OK, granting that, isn’t abortion torture? The baby is either starved to death, burned to death by chemicals or dismembered. And, when the torture is over, the baby is dead, unlike the terrorist. And the baby is known to be completely innocent, unlike the terrorist. Finally, the number of terrorists waterboarded ever is dwarfed by the number of babies aborted each day in the US.
So, proportionally, I’d have to vote against the abortion.
What if Catholics used the 17 months between now and the general election to arrange matters so that voting isn’t a choice between which grave evil to cooperate with?
What is torture? Is it an act, seriously against one’s will.
Is it an act which “might” kill somebody?
Is it an act “likely” to kill somebody?
Is it an act that the person having it done to them “might” perceive as one of the above?
Go away. Torture suck but so does unjust divorce and I have not heard this useless Pope condemn THAT enough to issue an excommunication for it!
I am sick of this stupid, theoretical, catholic, whining, BS about torture…..when the Catholic Church TORTURES abandoned spouses and their children EVERY SINGLE DAY by supporting adultery through its FAKE tribunals!!!
Please resign, Benedict. You are a disgraceful person.
Fr. Miller, I suggest you read the following. It asserts that opposition to capital punishment (especially for murder) violates fundamental moral principles revealed through Scripture and Tradition: http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=1463
Also, when Catholics take the victimization of the innocent (especially by Islamic terrorists) as seriously as they take discussions about “cooperating in grave evil,” then I will take their moral positions seriously.
Karl, the Vatican already granted the appeal you filed years ago. They gave you the moral high ground. Your wife’s second union is therefore invalid and her reception of communion therefore unworthy. If it’s so important to you that she stop receiving communion unworthily, then you warn her about the danger to her soul. The Church isn’t in the business of hunting down every person who receives unworthily and making a public spectacle of them.
In everything that is their business (such as authentic moral guidance), they gave you everything you asked for and even ruled in your favor. Your situation has received more favorable attention from the Vatican than the rest of us will likely receive in our lifetimes combined. You would do well to thank God and the Vatican for what you have already received.
The Vatican gave an authentic moral judgment that favored you in the case of your marriage, you should be cheering them on when they do this for others who have suffered injustice as well.