If you wanted to know the real reason why the CDF released the latest document, a commentator for CNN says:
Just chalk it up to an old man trying to get a little attention.
My favorite part of this ex-Catholic’s idiotic commentary is:
It doesn’t matter what Pope Benedict XVI has to say, or for that matter, any other religious leader. A Christian believes in Jesus Christ and what He had to say, not what a man of God has to say. This is not an attempt to completely dismiss religious leaders, but is further evidence of what happens when ego is more important than the work of Christ.
And then of course doesn’t see the problem with quoting the Bible in the next paragraph since now we are to listen to what this man of God has to say.
Oh and remember that Catholics are not encouraged to read the scriptures even though scripture reading is indulgenced or that Catholics hear more scripture at Mass then the average Protestant Church.
Jimmy Akin is up in arms and wants to write a response to this.
84 comments
You know, if I was god, I’d make my commands and desires fairly easy to understand, that way there would be no confusion and thus no fighting among my followers.
Hoodlum– “the problem with fool-proof design is that fools are so ingenious.”
What a frustrated little man, was Mr. Martin turned down by a seminary at one time?
Once again, the theist poo-pooers can’t make up their minds. How often do we hear how childish and easy-answer religion is? Now, the complaint is that it is too complicated for adults to understand. It’s like wathcing a helicopter fly with the rear-rotor shot off.
Thanks for blogging on this, and I’m glad Jimmy caught on too. I decided to give myself a cool down period, because the response I was formulating in my head involved “s-head” and “c—s—-r” and “f—-r” and such. I read stuff like this, and it makes me happy the secular arm used to burn heretics. Ah, the good old days…
I did write to CNN, somewhat restrained, and informed them I would never visit cnn.com again. Which I plan on sticking to.
Scott, my remark was aimed at the fact that the bible, like every other HUMAN written book, has to be interpreted by the reader.
This is not a problem with most fiction, but with the bible this leads to mass murder and mayhem because people believe, without objective evidence, that their interpretation is correct and everyone is immoral and evil 🙁
Hoodlum,
That is why the story of creations is not written using quantum physics.
Is the Pope anymore foolish than most Christians who believe that only Jesus can bring you to salvation? The truth of the matter is no religion owns God and if all followers of Jesus would stop trying to tell the world that their beliefs are the only beliefs this world would be a better place. I would think that God is big enough for every belief system.
It just made me sad to read him. When he said that he wasn’t encouraged to read the Bible, I thought, “Poor kid – why did his family not want him to read it?” Seriously, though, I think he’s about the same age as my cousins whose parents basically relied on CCD teachers to handle their formation (or not).
I am surprised that he points out that the Catholic church claims to be the only true church with such disregard to ANOTHER church that does the SAME thing—only they send out 50,000+ missionaries every year–the Mormon Church.
I have no problem with a critic taking issue with the Pope, but if there is any church who makes a point of having fast and testimony meetings to declare that their church is the one and only true church, it is the Mormons.
He blasted away at the Catholic Pope, but not a word about other churches that make a similar claim. The deal with the Mormons is that they make that claim every day, with every missionary lesson, and NOBODY takes them to task.
The Pope says it, and everybody is all over him.
This is why ALL religions should be outlawed. Religion has nothing to do with spirituality. All religion does is divide people. You don’t have to belong to a “religion” to believe in God or to be spiritual. How many people have died throughout history because of someone’s religion?…Millions. It is still going on today. If you don’t believe me, watch the news. Everyday, it seems there is a story about terrorism – which is driven by someone’s religion. The U.S. and Britian are under constant threat of terrorist attack because we don’t share the same religious beliefs as Muslims.
Just as Mr. Martin did, I grew up Catholic. I went to a Catholic grade school for eight years. The hipocracy that is innate in ALL religions and that I witnessed growing up has lead me to not trust or take seriously, anyone that is deeply religious. Seriously, listen to yourselves, you sound like 5yr. olds, “My religion is better than your religion.”
Apparently, you don’t know much about religion. Or human nature. Yep, you went to Catholic school alright.
You’ve just proved my point.
Oh, I see there’s an atheism infestation. Always good to see the “open minded” seeking to ban religion. As we all know, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao all killed millions in the name of religion. except they didn’t. Howe much more bloodshed has been shed by utopia-seeking secularists since the French Revolution? So much more than has been caused by the religious.
Pity these people, but pray for them as well.
Christopher Hitchens! Is that you?? Aww I’ve missed hearing form ya! Honestly, Eric, right on with that statement. There is more harm done in crusades/jihads and more evil wrought by missionairies and mullahs than you can calculate.
You just have to love divisive people bearing news that all that you’ve known and hold dear is wrong. Thank you Pope Benedict for clearing things up. You’ve shown me the light and the supremacy of the Catholic Church is without question. We have a couple thousand altar boys with a few lawsuits, while you have some time, your emminence.
Seriously, the CNN article was very straightforward and put forth with very little venom. Just an honest rebuttal to the Pope’s declaration. He’s entitled to his opinion. This Pope is the most hardline/activist cleric we’ve seen in a long time. I remember John Paul II and he was quite beloved by a number of denominations. This one comes bearing a sword. I’m sure it was meant jog the old blood among Catholic orders, giving them a sense of purpose and directive. Unfortunately, here’s the real problem.
Ninety-Five percent of the world’s religions say that the other 80% of the world is absolutely wrong in their beliefs and doomed to hell. Magnanimous God in all his wisdom couldn’t have doomed the whole of humanity to eternal punishment. Could He?
Religious leaders take the path to earthly power thru divine praise. Beyond local shepherding, it’s all a game of politics. This power is spread by fear and intimidation of others. Hatred and bigotry of other religions is the easy tool used by men of wisdom to warp the gullible and poor.
You need to look no further than WACO, Heaven’s Gate, the Taliban, the Crusades, Iraq, Palestine, Darfur, 9/11, Bosnia, the Inquisition, or the London subway to see what steps people take when they believe they alone are saved by god. The big 3 divine religions don’t have a great track record.
>> but is further evidence of what happens when ego is more important than the work of Christ.
It is interesting that the CNNinny identifies ego as a problem. As my cohort Shelray would no doubt observe, it would seem that this confused soul is providing a classical demonstration of projection.
You call those people “utopia-seeking”? Your idea of utopia is a lot different than mine. You should look up the word atheist. I didn’t say I don’t believe in God, I said I don’t belive in religion. By the way, if you consider religious leaders “open minded”, you are mistaken. Case in point, the Pope’s latest comments. Isn’t that what this whole thing is about? As far as numbers, do you think anything comes close to the bloodshed of the crusades? Not to mention the wars still being fought today have an underlying cause… someone’s religion.
This is why ALL religions should be outlawed.
You know, for people supposedly so versed in history, the sure can overlook the fact that religion (and Christianity in particular) positively thrives when people try to squash it. So bring it on.
You all are missing the point. You don’t NEED religion to be a spiritual person. Let it go. Get past the rules and just believe.
@ paul zummo, I certainly don’t have the stats to this but I am damn sure that the atheists have killed less people than the followers. Besides, why do you take Hitler in account his beliefs had nothing to do with atheism.
@ JonathanR, human nature and religious belief are two completely different entities.
@ Jeff Miller, boy where should I begin? Lets just say that the use of the word “idiotic” exemplifies of your ignorant belief in religion.
Wow. Eric’s latest has to be the most unintellectual, misinformed thing ever written on this blog, and Hoodlum has posted here pretty frequently. I suppose the 100+ million killed in Communist and Fascist regimes does equal the bloodshed of the Crusades, a remarkable accomplishment considering how much smaller the population was in the early part of the millennium.
As for the rest – really, go back to getting your info from CNN. Clearly it’s a font of reason and knowledge, as is evidenced by your comments. In fact, it’s good to hear back from some of the people who were led here from CNN’s website. It kind of reaffirms my decision to get my news from other sources.
As far as numbers, do you think anything comes close to the bloodshed of the crusades?
And why the Crusades? I think a decent case can be made that they as justfiable as allied involvement in WWII (in which the allies were guilty of a few atrocities which in no way invalidate the justness of resisting the Nazis itself)
i personally don’t care what the pope thinks. i worship god, not the head of a pagan religion.
@ paul zummo, why do you confuse fascists and commies with atheists? You seem like any other person who grew up during the cold war.
paul zummo, I certainly don’t have the stats to this but I am damn sure that the atheists have killed less people than the followers. Besides, why do you take Hitler in account his beliefs had nothing to do with atheism.
It’s probably folly to keep feeding the trolls, but I have to just sit back and admire them. First off, I simply love the open admission of “not having the stats to this.” But that won’t slow Jaime down, because dang it, Jaime’s just got a gut feeling. It’s like when people just know David Eckstein is a great player, stats be damned.
Of course, who the heck knows what Jaime means by “followers.” Followers of what? From the quote, it seems that it would be followers of . . . atheism. So in essence, Jaime is saying that atheists have killed less people than the followers of atheism. At least, that’s what could be implied from the grammatical structure of the sentence. I won’t argue with that claim.
As for Hitler – it took me a while to understand just what was being claimed here, but I’m throwing Hitler in with the brutal mass murderers of the 20th century who were not inspired by religious angst.
Seriously, this has been fun. Rant on, ye atheist soldiers. You provide loads of entertainment. I think I’m going to make some popcorn and watch the fireworks.
You all are missing the point. You don’t NEED religion to be a spiritual person. Let it go. Get past the rules and just believe.
Who says we even NEED to be spiritual? It’s quite simple–I believe the testimony of the Apostles. You can complain about my credulity all day and give laundry lists of crimes of the faithful, but you can’t demonstrate that it is an unreasonable belief without resorting to axioms that require the same kind of credulity that you complain we use.
“i personally don’t care what the pope thinks. i worship god, not the head of a pagan religion.” -melvinowens
Finally someone who gets the point!
“i personally don’t care what the pope thinks. i worship god, not the head of a pagan religion.” -melvinowens
Finally someone who gets the point!
Ohh I get the point. Catholicism is pagan. Well, that’s easy to state, but quite another thing to establish.
who the heck knows what Jaime means by “followers.”
You went to church school, thats for sure. On a blog where we are talking about the pope you must be really slow to not take a hint but if you are really are that retarded that i must clear this up here you go: atheists have killed less people than the “followers” -> followers as in those who follow any religion but most particularly the catholic church as you make proof of tremendous ignorance. As for my grammatical structure I am making a comparison and I can’t compare the atheists to themselves, can I? I hope you won’t send your kids to Sunday school.
Crusades pale in comparison to the slaughter of The American People. Which American people?
Europeans brought diseases against which the indigenous peoples of the Americas had no immunity. Chicken pox and measles, though common and rarely life-threatening among Europeans, often proved fatal to the indigenous people, and more dangerous diseases such as smallpox were especially deadly to indigenous populations. Epidemics often immediately followed European exploration sometimes destroying entire villages. It is difficult to estimate the total percentage of the indigenous population killed by these diseases, but some historians estimate that up to 80 percent of some indigenous populations may have died due to European diseases.
Smallpox, typhus, influenza, diphtheria, measles, malaria, and other epidemics swept in after European contact, felling a large portion of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, causing one of the greater calamities in human history, comparable only to the Black Death. In North America alone, at least 93 waves of epidemic disease swept through native populations between first contact and the early 20th century.
Not that there are any Aztec left to blog about forced conversion to Catholicizm. They’re all dead or bred into the Catholic Mexican population by the Spaniards. Then the Amazon Indians whose homes were cut down by the Portugeese. WooT! Go Team!
“We must bring God to these lawless heathens!” So thru Manifest Destiny, the Colonists wiped out the American Indians, the Conquistadors gutted >> tortured >> converted the Myan people, and then when we reached the pacific shores, we sent missionaries to bring Christ (and later Islam) to the phillipines.
Oh, those people HAD their own religions before we got there? NAH. We have the one TRUE church and we have to save them! By papal edict, we’re told in 1492 – oddly enough.
“…I certainly don’t have the stats to this, but I am damn sure…”
Only a fool is “sure” of something without evidence.
@ paul zummo, why do you confuse fascists and commies with atheists? You seem like any other person who grew up during the cold war.
Communism and Facism adherents were hostile to religion and tried to squash and outlaw it. Whether they perfectly fit a narrow definition of atheist is irrelevant because the very clearly implied and mind-bogglingly stupid assertion is that the elimination of relgion will eliminate atrocites. The Communist and Facist atrocities simply destroy that and amazing how coy non-believers are on this point.
huh, this seriously is getting entertaining, ok what i meant by that is that even though nobody has counted every single person to die in a religious war there numbers are far too significant compared to those who were killed to eliminate all religion.
“We must bring God to these lawless heathens!” So thru Manifest Destiny, the Colonists wiped out the American Indians, the Conquistadors gutted >> tortured >> converted the Myan people, and then when we reached the pacific shores, we sent missionaries to bring Christ (and later Islam) to the phillipines.
Oh, those people HAD their own religions before we got there? NAH. We have the one TRUE church and we have to save them! By papal edict, we’re told in 1492 – oddly enough.
Much ado and data-dumping about nothing. Sure, some justified coloniztion with religion, but the reason was good ol’ fashion greed.
@ Scott, I understand what you mean but their main goal was getting power and world domination. Even though they didn’t follow any religion.
huh, this seriously is getting entertaining, ok what i meant by that is that even though nobody has counted every single person to die in a religious war there numbers are far too significant compared to those who were killed to eliminate all religion.
Another case of needing to make up their minds. I always hear non-believers say that the only reason that religious war deaths don’t equsl 20th centuiry non-religious deaths is because they lacked the population and technology to do so. Which is it?
@ Scott, I understand what you mean but their main goal was getting power and world domination. Even though they didn’t follow any religion.
Ok, but my point stands. Elimination of religion does not equal eliminating of atrocities. And we are back to the problem of Good again. Why, whether from religion or from totalitarians, are they even atrocities anyway?
“You can complain about my credulity all day and give laundry lists of crimes of the faithful, but you can’t demonstrate that it is an unreasonable belief without resorting to axioms that require the same kind of credulity that you complain we use.”
You are confusing a belief in religion with a belief in God. They are two distinctly separate things. You can have a belief in God without believing in or belonging to a religion.
Did this get posted up on some atheist or fundy Christian forum somewhere? Where are all these people coming from?
Ah, the incessant argument from word games. “WE
are spiritual, THEY are only religious… just
don’t ask us to define the difference.”
Funny, the countries that still have large
Indian and mixed-blood populations are all
Catholic. Yeah, let’s blame the Catholic church
for everything.
“Elimination of religion does not equal eliminating of atrocities.”
No, but it would seriously reduce them.
Will, be nice…no one said religious people were not spiritual. These type of comments along with the name-calling comments of Paul Zummo just add more validity to my point.
This has got to be the stupidest article I have ever read on a supposed ‘quality’ newsite. This person has no clue about history or the RC faith. First of all, it is beyond ridiculous to quote scripture to refute the claims of the Church. It was the RC Church that compiled the bible and then codified it in the 4th century. Without the RC Church the protestants wouldn’t have a bible, and considering that for over 1,000 years of Christianity’s history most people were illiterate and books were beyond most people’s ability to afford them or have them copied, I highly doubt God would make reading the bible a necessary prerequisit for salvation.
And of course what does the author make of Christ’s quote “Peter, you are the rock on which I will build my Church and the gates of hell with not prevail against it.” and then the author still claims that Christ didn’t found a Church…. well then how can Christ’s message survive without an organization to maintain and promote his teachings?
Try letting go of your prejudices and open a histoy book or use your common sense, there has only been one organization that has kept Christ’s teaching intact from the beginning to this day and that is the Church that Christ Himself founded.
Did this get posted up on some atheist or fundy Christian forum somewhere? Where are all these people coming from?
Andy, the atheist/ fundy website CNN is linking here.
Being ‘spiritual’ doesn’t do anyone any good; ‘spiritual’ people, while well-intentioned, usually end up making their own rules and living out a solitary sort of vapid faith. Often, it amounts to feeling good when the weather is fine and maybe doing a good deed now and then. “Spirituality” also implies the ‘spirit’ is important but not the body, and that leads to a lot of people who are ‘spiritual’ engaging in activity that is less than moral (although they’d disagree with us traditionalists about what constitutes morality). And as Augustine says, “What am I but a guide to my own self-destruction?” Human beings need community, ritual, tradition, and a way of life that engages body, soul and spirit if they are to ‘spiritually’ thrive.
Wow! Pope Benedict sure is receiving many blessings while he’s “on vacation”! I’ve been praying that he be abundantly blessed, but this beatitude isn’t quite what I had it mind. May the truth of his teaching, and his uncompromising love for the Lord be heard above the noise of all the “spiritual” protesters! I pray this in the holy name of Jesus, and ask St Michael’s particular protection for the Vicar of Christ.
I’m Protestant, and I find this discussion somewhat fascinating. I have only been to a catholic service once in my life so I don’t know a whole lot about it. But one of the issues I have with the religion is why do Catholics have to go to a priest to confess their sins. Do Catholics not believe they can talk directly to God. Where does this belief come from? Secondly, why do catholics pray to the virgin Mary? Is that in the out of some text? Lastly, how did the Pope come into being. And what power over the church does he have? Just some honest questions from someone trying to learn more about a religion I don’t know very much about.
Thanks
He’s getting shelled over at Akin’s site right now. I was gonna comment but it’s all been said. The man just doesn’t know what he’s talking about. God forgive him.
Will’s comment from above implies that religious people are spiritual. I would agree with that. No one is saying they are not.
Irenaeus says, “Being ‘spiritual’ doesn’t do anyone any good”. In the same paragraph says, “Human beings need community, ritual, tradition, and a way of life that engages body, soul and spirit if they are to ‘spiritually’ thrive.” A total contradiction of the first sentence. Not to mention, all of those things can be achieved without the “help” of a religion.
Based on their comments, I assume (I know I shouldn’t do that) that both of these people belong to an organized religion. However, they contradict each other on the issue of spirituality. If religious people are spiritual and being spiritual “doesn’t do anyone any good”, then why be part of a religion?
Wes, I don’t want to get into a long discussion on the blog, but you could send me an email for followup if you’d like.
Quick, very brief and incomplete answers:
1. Jesus breathed on the apostles and said “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” (John 20:22). Catholics believe that the Bishops (present-day successors to the apostles) and, through them, priests, have the power to forgive sins in a way that is certain and very powerful.
2. If you look up the texts in the Bible about Mary you will find her as a great contemplative, obedient in every way, “full of grace,” “blessed amoung women,”–and you will find her standing at the foot of the Cross and with the apostles at Pentecost. Most of all you will find her as the real, true mother of Jesus the Lord, who is God. She is the Mother of God. Catholics believe that all saints have special intercessory power with God–we can pray through them and it is stronger and deeper than our own prayer. But Mary, because she is more involved in the mysteries of salvation, is an even stronger intercessor.
3. Jesus said “You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the jaws of hell will not prevail against it.” (Mt 16:18) And he gave him the ministry of “confirming the brethren.” (Luke 22:32)
Of course, Catholics believe that all authority is from the Father and has been given to the Son. But we also believe that a part of God’s mysterious plan is to share authority with human beings, including Mary, and with Peter and his successors and the other apostles and their successors.
(I reiterate: this is a really inadequate and brief response.)
@Kathy – thanks for putting Wes on the correct path to enlightenment.
@Wes – “I’m a Protestant … the issue I have with Catholic religion is (paraphase)”. How can you be a Protestant if you don’t even know the history of the RC church that your protestant views are completely dependent on? Talk about fascinating …
@Scott – Amen, brother.
For myself, all I can say is that I am comforted in the knowledge that I follow instruction from the apostolic church given to us through Christ himself – and not through some upstart “church” that was devised via an egotiscal human who believes he/she knows more about Christ and his intentions then the apostles themselves.