Reading through the Pentateuch (it just some so Bible geeky to use this term) and especially parts of the Book of Exodus it struck me how all of the Old Testaments liturgical documents are placed here. That not only do you get an Old Testament GIRM, but instructions on Temple architecture and design of interior decorations, plus also much details on liturgical vestments, and much more. I though it was interesting that right after the moral Commandments are given to Moses and the Israelites that immediately after that details on liturgical worship are set out and of course these intimately connected as the phrase Lex orandi, lex credendi is often used to show.
All of this though did make contrast the reaction to the liturgy of past and present. To think about Old Testament liturgical abuses and compare and contrast. The story of the Gold Calf make me think of Rad Trads in that this was a very early form. Those who held that Moses had no right to change the liturgy and they preferred the sacrifice of the Egyptians. Idol worship of course would be a very severe liturgical abuse. I also wondered if they had people like myself and others who talk about liturgical abuses? I can imagine a conversation in my head between two Orthodox Israelites complaining about Temple worship.
Isaac did you see what I saw at Temple today? Well Jephthah if you are referring to that lamb they sacrificed, I sure did. I mean did you see those blemishes on that lamb? Disgraceful! I even talked to the Levite in charge today about it and he told me some mumbo jumbo on how it didn’t matter just as long as he felt a lamb with blemishes was an acceptable sacrifice.
You are right it is disgraceful and this isn’t the first time they did this. One time I waited after the sacrifice to talk to the priest serving that day. I noticed that not only was the lamb not male, but it obviously had a broken leg! When I was growing up you would have never seen such an abuse, but I never know what I will see next in these modern times. I was well prepared with the appropriate documentation and I showed him the specified scriptures from my scrolls on Exodus and Leviticus and he just told me that I was being picky and that his conscience told him it was alright to sacrifice any lamb he wanted and that it doesn’t matter if the lamb is male or female that they are all one to God. He even had the nerve to tell me that Moses was a bit of a misogynist when it came to female sheep and that those instructions were based on this bias. I also wrote a scroll to the High Priest to complain, but I never did get a reply.
Well one thing you can say about the Temple sacrifice is you never saw a High Priest wearing a rainbow colored Ephod. Though in many ways there have always been the same problems. King Saul got into trouble when he decided he could offer a sacrifice on his own. He was starting his own version future church that didn’t require an ordained priesthood. Moses had to deal with plenty of dissidents. Parallel magisteriums have always been around. Consider the case of Korah and his company who set up their own tabernacle, kept court, and had plenty of followers. In my less charitable moods I kind of like the idea of the earth opening up and swallowing up whole bands of dissidents in one fell swoop. Though I see why letting the weeds grow along with the wheat is a much better idea, especially considering the weeds that end up as wheat.
We can also thank much of the New Testament, especially the Letters of St. Paul, to liturgical and theological abuses. The New Testament would have been much thinner if St. Paul didn’t have to write letters to address these problems. People have always been scandalized when it comes to the liturgy considering how important it is. The Church is always in need of reform simply because the same is said of each of its members in spades.
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Not only the poor will always be with us, but poor sinners — I mean, lax Catholics — will also always be with us. I have decided to train the kids that lax Catholics are a part of life. Ya can’t leave ’em without leaving the Church, so ya might as well love them (not confirm them in their sin, but love ’em). And, there even may come a time when the lax Catholic you encounter wears a Roman collar. Gotta love ’em too. Finding a little enclave of committed Catholics so you can sit around clucking about all the losers in the parish is probably not the Gospel way.
This is a huge revelation for me!!
Whimsy
Any comments on the Rad-Novus Ordoites who have Protestantized The Mass of the Ages?
Sorry, Chief… there simply isn’t any getting around it. The Mass of Paul VI is a mirror of the so-called “Evangelical Mass of martin luther”
Quick quiz –
“Mass of the Catechumens” was changed to “Liturgy of the Word”
“Mass of the Faithful” was changed to “Liturgy of the Eucharist”
Communion was changed from kneeling on the tounge to standing in the hand.
Guess where the latter originated. In the Mass of Paul VI? Guess again. Oh, and another thing, luther denied The Real Presence via Transubstantiation. With that said, most ‘practicing Catholics’ don’t even believe in The Real Presence.
Thank God for those Rad-Trads. At least someone isn’t bowing to creeping protestantism, and is adhering to the Catholicism that flourished vice floundered.
Actually, it is not just liturgy that comes from the Pentateuch, but also the sacraments. On my blog I have been relating how each sacrament has its origin in the law of God. (Though I haven’t figure dout marriage yet.)
‘kneeling on the tongue’???? I didn’t realize the traditional mass had this odd practice. It’s been a while since I went, though. 🙂
First of all, Vir, with certain ridiculous exceptions Communion is not mandatory in the hand.
Second, I’d be careful before criticizing the direct teachings of SC. It is an Apostolic Constitution.
Anybody looking for a proper understanding of the term “Mass” and its recent origin-recent in relation to other, older terms such as liturgy-should consult the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition). Employing the term liturgy is simply a reclaimation of very early usage, a usage which never ceased to exist in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church where it would be inexact to refer to the rites as a Mass.
oops! Here’s the link to the Cath Encyc article i mentioned above:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09790b.htm
My memory was that communion in the hand is permitted by indult in certain territories but not mandated as compulsory, or has the new GIRM and its permitted American adaptations changed that?
Throughout both the old and new testaments worship/liturgy/sacraments are often linked to morality. Recall the ending of Matthew’s Gospel where the words about baptism are immeidately followed by the injunction: Teach them to observe all that I have commanded.
Paul’s teaching about baptism in Romans 6 comes in the context of moral exhortation. The same holds true for St. Peter’s baptismal teaching in 1 Pet 3:8-4:6
See also St Paul’s general statements about liturgical prayer in Colossians 3:1-17 (there’s a heavy baptismal motif here as well but the dominant theme is morality). Also see Colossians 4:2-6, and Romans 12:1-21.
Andy,
I would also like to point out The Dogmatic Council of Trent. Is that been sent to the trash heap as well?
Also, CJ pointed out “lex orandi, lex credendi”. “How you pray is how you believe.”
As I’ve already pointed out, the Mass of Paul VI is Protestant inspired. If you pray like a Protestant, don’t be surprized if you believe like a Protestant.
But we don’t have probelms in The Church like practicing Catholics denying The Real Presense… practicing Catholics utterly blowing off the Sacrament of Confession for years and years… practicing Catholics who find nothing wrong with abortion, active homosexuality, stem cell research, etc, etc. We don’t have those probelms, do we?
By their fruits, you shall know them. Like I said before, “Rad-Trads” adhere to a Catholicism that flourished. The Novus Ordo-ites adhere to a Catholicism that’s floundering.
How about it, gang. What say we all dump the “let’s be like the prots” charade, and get back in the habit (and practice) of being Catholic.
I’m pretty sure the liturgical dance of the seven veils crept in there at some point.
St. Thomas More wrote about “devout” catholic highwaymen who would recite rosaries as a sort of covenant oath aomong themsleves, this was long before the Novos Ordo. Likewise the “religiousity” of the Mafia Dons din’t suddenly appear with Vat II. Anybody who has ever read anything of any substance on the history of Catholic Doctrine and the Councils (e.g. Tixeront’s History of Dogma) knows 1) that their have always been heretical reactions to such councils and that not all of these were “liberal” in nature. often “ultra-traditionalists” were incensed at the council, claiming it had sold out as it attempted to propogate its own views.
It’s a very supreficial thing to claim a connection between the council and protestantism without supplying any cause and effect.
Your arguements are no better than those of the Homoians who rejected the Homousia (consubstantial) of the council of nieca by claiming it was Sabellian.
The above is a perfect example of not letting the obvious get in the way.
“Lex orandi, lex credendi”, indeed.
I’m wondering if we might be making liturgy, good or bad, responsible for a bit too much here.
I certainly agree that we need to take worship seriously–and at some places there’s a lot of work that can be done before we even get to the “Latin or English” and “stand or kneel” questions–but without solid catechesis, people won’t even know what it is they’re going to end up believing or dismissing.
I was talking to a woman who went to a Catholic school right up through twelfth grade, a decent one from what I had already heard, who studied Humanae Vitae in high school because Vatican II didn’t take place until then. She was unfamiliar with how different protestants viewed the Lord’s Supper, so I attempted to sum up the various mainline beliefs.
When I got to “the Real Presence in, with, and under the bread and wine that remain,” she said “Oh, maybe that’s how it really is!” She knew that transubstantiation was the orthodox teaching, and she knew what it is, but to her, a compromise just made sense; if Protestants could be good Christians, and if Luther had some legitimate gripes with the Church, then maybe Rome and Luther (et al) were just on opposite sides of the truth.
In her case, more Tridentine masses wouldn’t have helped. What did help was reminding her of the actual theology. Maybe the more general or personally spiritual, and less educational, homilies she’d experienced since then are more a result of innovations from and abuses of Vatican II than of an unrelated accommodation to American pluralism, but “lex orandi, lex credendi” isn’t a magic formula.
Those are excellent points you raise, Ed. But I ask you to consider the possibility that your friend is a minority example.
And also take into consideration that before V2 the vast majority of Catholics absolutely adhered to The Real Presence, and present day the numbers hover at 35%.
Think about it… most “practicing Catholics” today don’t even believe in the Real Presence. Should I even bring up Confession, abortion, sodomy, etc, etc?
Thanks to the “spirit of Vatican II” crowd, Catholicism ceased being a religion of absolutes, and became a philosophy of relativism.
By their fruits, you shall know them.
“As I’ve already pointed out, the Mass of Paul VI is Protestant inspired. If you pray like a Protestant, don’t be surprised if you believe like a Protestant.” (Vir Speluncam above)
I dunno, I don’t think a Protestant who understood the Novus Ordo mass would consider it consistent with his beliefs.
“By their fruits, you shall know them. Like I said before, ‘Rad-Trads’ adhere to a Catholicism that flourished. The Novus Ordo-ites adhere to a Catholicism that’s floundering. How about it, gang. What say we all dump the ‘let’s be like the prots’ charade, and get back in the habit (and practice) of being Catholic.” (Vir Speluncam above)
I didn’t realize the Novus Ordo instituted a different Catholicism. There is only one holy catholic and apostolic church. Despite your objection to the Novus Ordo, it is not “un-Catholic”, for the simple reason that the Church defines what is Catholic, not you.
And, despite your closing sentance, those who follow the Novus Ordo are Catholic.
Oh Vir, I’m only hoping and praying that this woman is not in the minority. (:
Can someone point me to the study that published this 35% figure? I’d like to know what else it uncovered, but all I can remember is that lone figure cited as far back as I’ve been in the blogosphere.
I don’t object to ecumenism in principle, but when I see cases like my friend’s, where she apparently thought all communion was the same and it was just each denomination’s understanding that differed, I sometimes wonder if we pushed the practice of ecumenism too far ahead of teaching what it really means in light of the Church.
BV,
And, despite your closing sentance, those who follow the Novus Ordo are Catholic.
I don’t deny that they’re Catholic. On the other hand, I’m emphasising that the Mass they attend is simply and honestly, Protestant inspired. There simply is no getting around that inconvenient fact.
And also, my closing sentence was By their fruits, you shall know them. And like I pointed out, most practicing Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo don’t even believe in The Real Presence.
So like I said, by their fruits, you shall know them.
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Ed Pie,
there are numerous resources out there that answer your question. But in the meantime, try this; http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=320
It’s from a very pro-Vatican II publication, and even they admit this the numbers are dismal.
Also, this may be of help along the same lines of the state of the “New & Improved Vatican II Church” — http://catholic-caveman.blogspot.com/2005/11/bitter-fruits-of-vatican-ii-index-of.html
And concerning ecumenism, I’m all for it! The pre-V2 definition, that is. TRUE ecumenism is bringing all people to the Truths found only in The Catholic Church. All other is heresy or paganism. Yes, it really is that simple.
“I’m emphasizing that the Mass they attend [the Novus Ordo] is simply and honestly, Protestant inspired.” (Vir Speluncam above)
That’s a pretty sweeping statement that I don’t think you’ve supported very well. If you want to claim that it contains “Protestant influences” that’s one thing (not that I’d necessarily agree). But to say it’s “Protestant-inspired” is quite another. To my knowledge, the Novus Ordo mass has all the elements that existed in the first masses: reading of the Scriptures, breaking of the bread, communal prayers, etc.
“And also, my closing sentence was: By their fruits, you shall know them.” (Vir Speluncam above)
This argument doesn’t seem to follow either. If ‘you know them by their fruits’, how is it that the fruits of the Church which practiced the The Mass of the Ages is the Novus Ordo?
“Protestant influences”… “Protestant-inspired”
Now your just playing word games. No amount of verbal gymnastics can change the obvious. Unfortunantly, BV, I can’t make you recognize the obvious. One cannot imitate Protestntism indefinatly without eventually becomeing one. Shall we discuss how many “practicing Catholics” deny The Real Presence, Sacramental Confession, etc, etc, any further? I don’t know if you’ve noticed this or not… but Roman Protestants outnumber faithful Catholics. And the sad thing is, many of them wear Roman Collars.
has all the elements that existed in the first masses: reading of the Scriptures, breaking of the bread, communal prayers, etc.
So? The heretical Lutherans and Anglicans/Episcopailians claim the same thing.
how is it that the fruits of the Church which practiced the The Mass of the Ages is the Novus Ordo?
I suggest you read up on some of the warnings that Christ sent His mother to tell us. Particularly at Akita, Japan. Something about those who desire to destroy The Church from within. Now you don’t think that Jesus sent His mother to lie to us, do you?
Also, even though satan shall never defeat Holy Mother The Church, there are still those within who can and are very much taken with the evil one.
The Bride of Christ is perfect. Those who comprise The Church are not.
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