A quote from a June 18th Pastoral Letter by Most Rev. John W. Yanta, Bishop of Amarillo was recently quoted on Dawn Eden’s blog.
"Dressing or putting on one’s clothes is a moral act and wearing them is a moral act."
The bishop immediately adds:
There are different appropriate modes of dress for different occasions, e.g. in the privacy of our home, with our spouse only or with our children in our home, at work or school, in mixed company, at the lake or swimming pool, grocery shopping, at church, etc.
His pastoral letter quotes heavily from the Catechism and talks mainly of the virtues.
The Feministe blog takes exception to the quote and letter that they found via Dawn.
Which is interesting, as these two statements seem to indicate that men shouldn’t leer at women. Which apparently gets translated into telling those temptresses to cover it up, because if the dudes are looking at you, it’s because you’re dressed like a harlot and you’re inciting them.
The Bishop is careful to couch all of his admonishments in gender-neutral terms, but anyone with a teaspoon of common sense understands that when we’re critcizing people for wearing “provocative,” “suggestive,” “tight,” and “sexual” clothing, we probably aren’t talking to the guys.
It is no surprise that a feminist blog would only see this in a terms of there "blaming us" when it comes to modesty since this is such a common argument and that the issue of modesty only addresses what women wear. While for the most part it is true that in our current culture that it is more likely that women dress immodestly, it has not always been so. Cod pieces and other paraphernalia are currently out of style, but men throughout history have also been guilty of dressing immodestly.
I do wonder how feminism went off the tracks from wanting respect and equality of treatment to not having a problem with women being mainly seen as a sexual commodity and viewed mainly by sexual attributes. There is of course a total lack of understanding that modesty in dress is a charitable act. Custody of the eyes is hard enough to practice in these times unless you happen to be wearing dark glasses and walking around with a white cane. Concupiscence is a reality and whether male or female actively dressing modestly is truly a moral act and a very charitable one.
28 comments
Militant-feminists and guilty-white-liberals are the main proponents of PC-Nazism. I have to deal with people like these within my own archdiocese with thin skins, so any ‘constructive’ discussion ends abruptly when I add in my two cents worth.
I find the backless, sleeveless “shirts” combined with the low-rise jeans so as to show off the butterfly tattoo on the small of one’s artificially-tanned back, which is especially visible when kneeling for the consecration, is a wonderful opportunity for spiritual conditioning. I’d much rather see that than the tee-shirts, shorts and flip flops their male counterparts are wearing.
Methinks the bishop dost protest too much. I mean, at least they’re at Mass and all. Shouldn’t he focus on the positive?
Obviously, what a lot of folks are wearing today is not covering enough, but I often get the impression from Catholic blogs that many commenters won’t be satified until every woman is running around in a shapeless to-the-floor jumper. (The comments have also often included deeply unkind comments about who’s is aesthetically entitled to show her legs in public.)
Assuming they aren’t too tight, I think bermuda shorts and a polo shirt ought to be more than enough to cover my end (no pun intended) of the bargain re: concupiscence (I’m not saying they are neccessarily appropriate for church.) – but I’m a gal and I don’t see the world the way some men apparantly do.
Is that enough?
Guys, guys, there’s no comparison between men and women when it comes to modest dress. Guys dressing immodestly are going to attract gay men not women. Women are not generally as visually stimulated as men are. That’s why internet porn is largely a problem for men. The comparable for women would probably be those “romance” paperbacks. Different medium. You say that feminists don’t understand modest clothing as a charitable act and you’re absolutely right. For women (generally) there is only attractive and unattractive clothing, modesty doesn’t figure in at all. Women don’t see themselves as being provocative to men because women don’t tend to see men that way. It wasn’t until I was married and got my husbands’ perspective that I got a clue. Fathers really need to have some blunt conversations with their daughters.
Sorry Terry, I hafta disagree with you, but both situations are inappropriate for Mass. It’s not a case of “lesser of two evils” because both are evil to begin with.
You think you’ve got this problem only during the American summer, it’s year-round in a tropical country like the Philippines. The worst case I can recall was this pair where the woman was not only inappropriately dressed, but the two of them were being lovey-dovey, she resting her head on his shoulder, both of them nudging and whispering to one another. And to think that both of them were members of one of the student Catholic organizations in my alma mater where I go to noontime Mass daily! They’ve even sung in choir at times. Speaking of, the choir members should really set an example and not let any shorts-clad member join in the singing.
Too bad the feminists don’t realize that there are two separate but related culpabilites here: the woman for dressing immodestly in the first place, and the man for not resisting (for those who ogle).
They want their bikinis.
They shall have burkas.
Sorry Ray. I guess my comments were a poor attempt at following the same path as our esteemed Web log host. It’s a year round issue here in South Florida as well. As much as I love all of my parish priests, including one from the Phillipines, dress, punctuality, and the lack of necessity for cell phones during Mass are three issues I wish they’d address more. Not that anyone would listen.
They want their bikinis. They shall have burkas.
“That’s funny. I don’t care who you are.”
Comes down to a both / And. My pastor gave a talk at a home-schooling convention about about the Theology of the Body. One of the issues is that there is a major contingent of what I call “The Catholic Burka Association.”
The problem is that there are two extremes and both of them are wrong. Showing too much is bad, but one must remember that God may women beautiful, and as such, we can appreciate that beauty without falling into sin.
My daughter dresses very well, and in my opinion very stylishly. However, she will not dress out of the JR’s department because the styles are “disgusting” in her eyes.
Teach the theology of the Body and this problem will go away. Cover the body and you are denying the beauty that God created.
John
I am not a fan of the ‘Catholic Burka Association’. Or as my friend who went to Tridentine Mass with me said “Lots of women here are dressed like Mormons”
I think Bishop Yanta is totally right. It all depends on where you are and what you are doing. However, I think that flexibility extends to Mass as well.
For the Saturday evening vigil Mass in my suburban Parish… nice capri pants and a plain T-shirt is totally OK. Sunday morning Tridentine High Mass at St. John Cantius… I felt out of place as a woman wearing slacks.
Now I usually wear a skirt, but it is hardly dowdy – it is the same skirt and top I wear swing dancing… to the knee and covering my shoulders. Stylish (if I do say so myself) and modest.
I don’t understand how people (men and women) can not feel uncomfortable when they are dressed innapropriately.
I took a look at pictures of myself from the 80’s when I was in my teens and twenties. Tasteful is not the word, in general, that comes to mind. I didn’t wear anything that showed copious amounts of flesh — as a matter of fact, mostly those gigantic oversize shirts. Unfortunate large amounts of make up prevailed. But for a few of those pictures, where I wore a simple, classy silk dress — cut well — I can nod my head and say, “That looks good.” And they’re still available today folks! Gratefully, even I knew feather earrings were a bad idea, even at that tender an age.
I guess my point is, do you think when people look over their photos taken today in about a decade or so will say, “What was I THINKING?!!” Of course many will (if they’re honest), and I’ll bet more than a few will regret permanent fashion trends such as tattooing, piercing and branding.
(I still think the Sheena Easton hairdo is quite nice)
Cod pieces! Please don’t give people any ideas 🙂
Has anyone read Dressing with Dignity? What a great book on this very topic! Dressing modestly does not mean dressing shabbily. On the contrary, it is a woman’s duty to dress and look like a woman. Any questions? Look to the Blessed Virgin for suggestions! If she would be embarassed to see someone dressed in a particular outfit, then that outfit should probably not be worn. Modesty increases a woman’s own sense of dignity, not to mention increasing other people’s awareness of a woman’s dignity as well. And again, that doesn’t mean wearing only jumpers or shapeless dresses. I work pretty hard to be modest, and my husband has yet to complain. Such a small sacrifice on the part of a woman seems more than worth while as it could prevent a man from falling into sin. Like others have said here, men fall through their eyes far more than women do, which is why women need to be more careful about modesty. However, hey guys, what’s so bad about wearing a shirt and tie? It’s tolerable and respectful. We go to meet the King of kings at Mass, so why not dress for the occasion? If not out of respect for yourself, dress appropriately out of respect for our Lord. That’s a very small sacrifice compared to, say, His Passion. And Jeff: Great blog! Amen, brother!
Modesty is an act of charity. That’s a great way to put it. Many feel like dressing modestly is simply a restriction on themselves. It’s more than that. It’s an act of love for those around you (especially men). When you start looking at things through the lens of “love”, you stop looking at “where do I draw the line” and start thinking about virtuous heroicism.
I think we need to be careful about the Theology of the Body, too. Even Scott Hahn says, there are some out there who take JPII’s wonderful teachings about this and present it without touching on Christian modesty. Yes, God made all of us beautiful, and we shouldn’t be ashamed of our internal and external beauty. However, there is a beauty that is meant to be kept a mystery until you enter into the intimate covenant of marriage.
The choice isn’t between bikinis and burkas, which is stretching the “opposing” viewpoint to its farthest option. The choice is between bikinis and modest, tasteful dress, which may very well be quite fashionable. The issue is also broader than Mass attire–what do we wear and where? (I thank thee Lord that I am a native speaker of English, and can understand my previous sentence).
Men are just as culpable in this as women, for a number of reasons. First, provocative dress is provocative dress, and makes can and do dress provocatively–regardless of their audience. Second, there are more issues than simple provocation here: if how we dress, in our so superficial culture, reflects how we see ourselves and how we wnat others to see us, then we have a measure of responsibility for that. This would encompass such things as neatness, cleanliness and situational appropriateness. Especially if we are known as Catholics (and we should be) we should be aware of what message our dress sends to those around us.
However, having said that men need to look at this issue as well, I do concede that right now women have far more everyday opportunities to practice prudence in this area than men do. Saying that isn’t sexist, however–just realist.
How about men dressed for Mass in ‘muscle shirts’? The last think I really want to see at Holy Mass is a hairy body hanging out from under an oversized arm hole. Or shorts on teen boys that are too low so that their underwear elastics hang out the top? YICK! That is truly a disgusting trend! Or Tshirts with World Wrestling Federation logo & or hideous designs from rock bands on them?
I sure wish parents would get off their lazy duffs and instruct their children – but then again – the way some of THEM dress for Holy Mass —- OY! (all of my kids have nice, tasteful modest clothes. They all know better than to think they will escape this house for Mass looking unkempt, immodest or disrespectful.)
Our associate pastor from Nigeria addressed this recently, too. He said to the young ladies, “I’m sure you think you have nice assets. God gave you young beautiful bodies, and I’m sure you think we all need to see how nice they are. But we don’t really want to see those assets in Church. Look at your grandmothers. They were all young once. And they were all HOT just like you think you are. Today, do you want your grandmothers coming to church, showing us her assets? You don’t want to see her assets, and we don’t want to see yours either!”
It was a great homily!!
My problem is that I have too much contact with the CBA and the CJA (Catholic Burka Association and the Catholic Jumper Association.) I find that there seems to be a very puritanical attitude that almost any flesh show in evil.
Examples are the women telling my daughters that their sleeves should be below the elbows and that their skirts should be almost down to the ankle. I have seen this attitude in action, and it isn’t healthy.
While the Great Hahn may have commented that some can take the TOB to extremes I would also point out that the Sistine Chapel is the Chapel of the Theology of the Body. One of the things that My pastor has me do is go look at art at the Art Institute, specifically on the NUDES. I might as well confess it to the world, but I have an awful time with LUST. It is one of those sins that is simply not easy for me to deal with.
What my pastor has helped me with is to look past the lust into the beauty and instead of treating a woman as an object, Art treats her as a person. Once you get your mind set into that way of looking at things, you can turn your mind, with the grace of God in different situations to the person rather than turning them into an object.
Christopher West has a wonderful story (probably a catholic urban legend, but what the hell it shows the differences) about two Cardinals in Rome, both were walking out of the Vatican and a prostitute dressed VERY scandalously walked by. The first Bishop yells out “Brother Bishop Avert your eyes.” The other bishop turns around with tears in his eyes and says “What a tragedy that such beauty must be sold for the lust of man.”
Yes, the Theology of the Body isn’t a license to walk around naked, but we must realize that there is an extreme element in the modesty movement that is very close to puritanism. The body isn’t evil, and we shouldn’t treat it as such. However if we simply try to cover up most of it then we are dealing with symptoms and not the disease.
John Gibson, preach it brother!
If the Pope were to say Mass in your parish and you were one of a few hundred allowed admittance, would you have to be told to “dress nice?”
Well Jesus Christ is living in the tabernacle in your parish. Why do you feel it is OK to come to Mass dressed for the beach or a volleyball game?
And don’t get me started on people at Mass who think that they are in a movie theater and can’t keep their hands off of each other.
Ray from MN, you said, “Well Jesus Christ is living in the tabernacle in your parish. Why do you feel it is OK to come to Mass dressed for the beach or a volleyball game?”
Sooner or later the debate about dressing for Mass always includes this sort of point, but I don’t think it’s a valid one. People often dress very differently for daily Mass, for instance, than they do for Sunday. Well, isn’t the Lord there on Wednesday? People often show up for Confession in whatever they happen to be wearing on Saturday. Isn’t the Lord there on Saturday? Frequently people are in church cleaning, decorating, or doing maintenance, and they are NOT wearing tasteful dark suits or tea-length dresses. But isn’t the Lord there then, as well?
The true question here seems to me to be whether or not the character of Sunday Mass is such that it requires, or at least suggests, some extra effort on the part of worshippers to “dress up” a bit. I would answer ‘yes’ to this question, provided that we understand and agree what “dress up” means, and provided that dressing up doesn’t impose any significant burdens on us (such as an undue financial burden, or the sort of burden women encounter when they are expected to wear sheer stockings in a Minnesota winter, or long-sleeved, long skirted dresses here in Texas in summer, where it’s supposed to be 101 degrees this coming Sunday). That said, the problem of “dressing for Mass as if one is going to the beach or a volleyball game” seems to be a cultural problem. People wear extremely casual clothing for all sorts of occasions. I agree that this should change, but how do we go about it?
Mary Martha mentioned Mormons and modest dress.
My parish is the Cathedral in Salt Lake City so we have more than our share of Mormon visitors for the main Mass on Sunday. They are conspicuous because they are dressed well and modestly. They wouldn’t dream of going to their church or anybody else’s dressed the way Catholic do. I am always so embarrassed, wondering what they must be thinking.
Ray Spoke:
If the Pope were to say Mass in your parish and you were one of a few hundred allowed admittance, would you have to be told to “dress nice?”
John Reponded:
Unfortunally as fallen human beings some people make bad choices. Most people on this blog would probably dress to the nines to meet the Pope. I would. However remember that the Pope is human and he has visited those in hospitals, who weren’t dressed in clothes but PJs. I am not advocating, and never adovocated dressing down. I believe that what one wears shows one’s inside attitude. However, I have gone to Church in Shorts and a tee shirt due to the fact that in the Byzanintine Catholic Church we don’t move our Holy Days of obligation and since my Church is an hour away during Rush Hour, being able to dress up for Holy Days is hard. On Sundays I am dressed properly.
Ray Said:
Well Jesus Christ is living in the tabernacle in your parish. Why do you feel it is OK to come to Mass dressed for the beach or a volleyball game?
John Replied:
Jesus looks at both our hears and what we wear. I have met people who dressed up for Church who I would not want to be near my Children. Don’t get me wrong, but remember outward appearance is just one part of the whole. It tends to be the most visible. I know some jerks who dress for Church but who are but “whitewashed tombs”
Ray Said:
And don’t get me started on people at Mass who think that they are in a movie theater and can’t keep their hands off of each other.
John Replies:
Now here is where we both agree 🙂 Matter of fact, I agree with most of what you are saying right now, I am just in an argumentative mood 😉 Frankly I believe that this is where our lack of teaching has come to in the last few years. If our Bishops and priests had been doing their jobs teaching us the faith maybe this problem wouldn’t be as big as it is at this point.
A friend of mine once said regarding modesty: Your clothes should be tight enough to show that you are a woman, but loose enough to show them that you are also a lady. She was certainly not a member of the CBA.
Some commenters have mentioned shorts hanging halfway off a person’s rear and another wearing muscle shirts to Mass. The point of that style of dress is not to be sexy, as is much of the immodesty that many women are guilty of. No, these guys are just dressed trashy when it comes to Mass attendance.
I prefer women to dress with a little mystery. Before I met my wife, I was more likely to stare at a woman in a long skirt, than one in a mini. And low-rise jeans are just annoying. Go back to the older “high-rise!” One, they don’t show underwear or “plumber’s syndrome”, and two, they accentuate the woman’s curves more… thus making her appear more FEMININE.
You do NOT have to sacrifice modesty for fashion or vice-versa…there are plenty of women’s clothing shops that sell attire that is both flattering and provides adequate coverage.
As for Mass, I think it would be good to observe the rules for St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome: shoulders covered, legs covered above the knee, and this goes for men AND women. It sounds pretty reasonable to me, and it hardly qualifies as “Catholic burkas”!
I think it is also wise to remember that modesty is not just a way of dressing, it’s a worldview, and a way of life. Here’s a good website to visit: http://www.modestyzone.com (a couple of my friends are contributors to their blog).
We dress up for mass, as do most in our parish, but even so, when my son wore a suit he was asked why. Oh, how about… we’re in church!
Note the key words, “appropriate to the place and the occasion.” At the beach, you wear bikinis. On my farm, in the blisteringly hot, swelteringly humid South Carolina summers, I wear shorts and a tank. (That is, a tank-top.) When I go into town, I’ll change into jeans and a T-shirt, the jeans not tight, but well-fitted. What I wear at work is a non-issue, since I work at home. But when I have to dress up, it’s also modest. None of my skirts are above the knee; if a shirt is a little see-through, I’ll wear an undershirt. And I’ve always been complimented on my clothes. So dressing modestly doesn’t have to mean looking dowdy or frumpy.
/
And there’s something to be said for having an all-male hierarchy in the Church. As men, they KNOW men are visually oriented; that’s why the modesty laws have always leaned a little bit more heavily toward guidlines for women. Though I’m sure they had a lot to say about those codpieces—especially the exaggerated ones that were once all the rage. There are enough pictures of them in books on the history of fashion that I can honestly say I’ve never seen anything so disgusting in my life.
1) occasionally in the tradition there’s modesty rules for men; one of the most noted examples is in the original Rule of the Franciscan third order, which orders that men “will sew up the fronts of their tunics, or at least lace them up fully, and not wear them hanging open as secular people do.” There must have been a chest hair fixation in the 1300’s…….
2) I’ve met a few CBA folk, and they commiserate with me about the awful, etc, capri pants, sweatpants, etc. without noticing _I’m_ wearing shorts and a t-shirt! So a lot of it must be context. They see my chair and my hat, and miss the rest, which is good since the fanciest I have is a denim blouse or a polo shirt. Even for the Pope, if they want me to dress “up” they’ll need to provide six week’s notice and the cash to do it with!
I think there are two separate issues mixing here: modesty as in “covering all the body parts that ought to be covered” and comportment as in “not being overcarsual or overdressy and monitoring stuff like logos’.
Tell it, Miss Knapp! I remember my own brush with mashers at Mass – they were both dressed very modestly for people who couldn’t stop smooching and whispering into the consecration!
Terry, if my alcoholic uncle showed up at my wedding in his muscle shirt and his tight jeans that show he’s still got a good body – I wouldn’t be happy that he showed up. I’d be wondering if he was sober! Same with men who show up in biking shorts and a skin-tight T-shirt. Maybe they stopped for Mass after a charity bike race? Or women whose thongs show in the gap between their low-rise jeans and midriff shirts every time they stand during Mass. I’ve seen people in jeans and sweatshirts, people still in their work uniforms, and even prostitutes who liked my old pastor’s homilies – but even the latter put jackets on to hide their plunging busts and sat in the back where they wouldn’t cause a scene.
Somebody above mentioned the valid point that women are not affected by the way men dress as much as men are affected by the way women dress (men are more stimulated visually, while women are more “turned on” by the romance or the connection of a relationship – this is why porn is more of a men’s problem – even if it is becoming a women’s issue in our culture of androgyny)
As one who suffers from SSA and seeks to live a life of chastity, I think it would be an act of charity for men also to observe a reasonable level of modesty in dress as well!
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