Domenico Bettinelli links to and comments on this article on a vice-Mayor of Mesa upset about having Latin Masses conducted in the diocese again.
The announcement by Bishop Thomas Olmsted that Latin masses will be allowed in the Phoenix diocese after a 25-year absence troubles me, particularly in the context of other recent changes in church policy and procedures.
I wonder what those changes he objects to are? Could it be the return to orthodoxy?
Understand that I am the product of a Catholic education throughout grade school, high school and college. I lector at my parish and have served on its parish council. My first training as an altar server was in Latin. And, I don’t regret the two years of Latin I took in high school.
Unfortunately most of the times you hear “I am the product of a Catholic education” preface something, you know the next sentence will display just how lacking it was.
However, permitting or encouraging Latin masses is part of a misguided trend to go back in time to the romanticized church of the 1940’s and 1950’s. Today’s Catholic Church is not the fictional movie church of Bing Crosby, Ingrid Bergman or Barry Fitzgerald. We don’t speak Latin to each other. I greet people with “hello” and not “salve”.
Since he is also a lawyer I wonder if he has ever written against all the misguided Latin terms used in the law?
There was a reason that the Second Vatican Council called for services to be held in the vernacular. Greater understanding and participation by lay members led to a renaissance of the Catholic Church in the 60’s and 70’s. Sadly, some in the church today would prefer to reverse many of the Vatican II reforms.
The Mass transformed to a “service” and of course referring to the fictional references for the vernacular from the council. The actual “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” states “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.” I wonder if his work as a lawyer in looking up references was this shoddy?
Conservative groups such as Opus Dei have infiltrated the clergy in many communities and are subtly wielding power to influence many of these changes. Such groups would be much happier if all priests wore cassocks and birettas and all nuns returned to wearing habits and living in convents, instead of actively participating in community affairs and in encouraging social justice.
The Opus Dei Bogey man attacks again. Please folks look under your beds and in your closets to make sure none of them are hiding and ready to spring out on you and to attack you with conservative theology.
This past year, we have seen a de-emphasis in the role of the laity in Mass services, with lesser roles for lectors and Eucharistic ministers and an emphasis on the roles of priests and deacons. Where is this all leading? Will the next papal bull require women to again wear hats in church?
I don’t know where this new church road is leading, but going back to Latin Masses certainly is not going my way.
Since he is a liberal Democrat who voted for every Democrat for President including Al Gore, I am surprised that he is against choice. Isn’t offering Latin, Spanish, and Masses in English just more choice? Or as the favorite liberal reply goes “If you don’t like Mass in Latin, don’t go.”
Here is a new blogger to St. Blogs who thanks the Bishop and says “The general state of the liturgy here can, I believe, rightly be classified as “suffering.” This blogger is identified as “Not A Liturgist” and I just got to love that. I wonder what the vice-Mayor would think about this blogs title being in Latin?
Liturgiam authenticam
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Update: Dale Price, the fisk master, also has at it on this article.
25 comments
I do like the old Rite, and love the Latin, but I recently discovered and Anglican-use Catholic parish near us and we are finally home.
Sounds like this layman has issues, no, subscriptions. Unfortunately, I recently lived in a diocese where this sentiment that the “great revolution in the church during the 60s & 70s” was still as far as anyone had gone.
Interestingly enough, it was in the SW US. I wonder if there is a connection between weird liturgical timewarps and living in the desert.
On a completely different topic, thanks CJ for linking to me a few days ago.
Hello,
I think serpent has the right idea. The Latin
Mass is the holiest of holies. It’s the greatest
prayer we can offer to the Father that is the
sacrifice of his son on the cross. The focus
needs to be entirely on our Father and not on the
people. Unfortunately, there are too many Novus
Ordo Masses that don’t focus in that direction.
Also, did you know that according to Vatican 11
it was never mentioned that women shouldn’t cover
their heads? I was surprised to read that and
found that it was just another thing that came
about like the holding of hands during the Our
Father. Anyway, I’m thrilled that the phoenix
Diocese is granting the indult for the Tridentine
Mass. I’ve been praying for this to happen for
many years. Please people do try to attend a
Latin Mass. You really need to go back and study
the Church to really understand why it is so missed!!!!
Linda
My 17-year old daughter recently commented on how useful it would be to know Latin if one was to become a physician.
It would be nice if you wrote more about Opus Dei. All I know about it was that Robert Hansen, the Mole of Moles, was a member.
Dear Jeff,
Are you a mind-reader. I am very much of the attitude, “If you don’t like Mass in Latin, don’t go.” Which is one of the reasons I do not go. I like Latin at Mass, just not the whole of it. Haven’t puzzled this one through yet, but when I have attended Masses in Latin, it seemed the rate of the responses were like that in English and other languages…fast. Maybe not the “full, active, and concious” participation, or maybe so. I know not.
However, I do enjoy the Anglican Use Liturgy of the Roman Church. The community there is traditional and welcoming. For me, the best of both worlds!
Very good points Jeff! I think the ETWN masses do a nice job of incorporating the old and the new, the Latin with the vernacular. But then, I was a toddler when the Latin went out of use so I don’t have a clear perspective of it. I would really like to attend one sometime.
Dear Elena,
I agree with you on the EWTN Masses. I’ve heard them (not seen…no cable at my parents’ but the radio works fine) and the Latin I already know and the vernacular keeps it so I can be a “full, active, conscious” participant.
Will the next papal bull require women to again wear hats in church?
Egads! Women? Hats? Veiling, even?
In fact, the Church has never *formally* dispensed with the requirement of head-covering in church–although informally, clearly the requirement has fallen by the wayside. I enjoy veiling when I attend the Tridentine Mass; I don’t veil when I attend the Novus Ordo Mass. “When in Rome…” (I think there’s a pun in there somewhere?)
I also like the reference to the “romanticized church” of the 40s a la “The Bells of St. Mary’s.” Ingrid Bergman gave one of the most twisted portrayals of the religious vocation on film. I also imagine “hello” and not “salve” was the preferred greeting of the day–even way back in the ancient 1940s.
But I could be wrong.
The Parish I go to has a Mass like EWTN’s on the first Sunday of each Month. I prefer this combination of Latin and English myself. Even being totally lacking in the training in Latin it did not take me too long to learn the responses and what they mean.
Another benefit for those parts of the Mass in Latin is that there is no awkwardness in the translation or some agenda set by a translator.
They also have the Indult Latin Mass every Sunday though I normally go to the new rite. It is very reverential and they have gone back to the correct responses in English as truly translated from the Latin as approved by the Bishops conference.
Could someone explain the appeal of the Latin Mass to me? I am not sure that I comprehend the benefit of it?
How is hearing a sermon in a language that one does not understand useful?
I understand it from the standpoint of tradition, but in strictly utilitarian terms it doesn�t seem to add up; although, I acknowledge that perhaps I am missing something from the picture.
For example, does the church encourage parishioners to learn Latin?
Will the next papal bull require women to again wear hats in church?
As a sign of respect to �God� I think that it makes some sense.
the serpent,
in the latin Masses ive atteneded the sermon was ALWAYS in english.
missals are usauly available that have latin on the left hand side of the book and english on the right, thus one can follow along easily after a while.
it does have utility. one does not spend decades argueing over wether to translate a word- such as ‘father” to “parent’ or something similar
it is the same. in too many masses it seems to be whatever the priest/liturgucai committe wants. with the latin mass i know what to expect no matter where i am or who is presiding. if i had to show the Mass to say an atheist from china i would use the latin Mass to explain it since i would be sure that it would not change if we went to the same church next week.
Tomas,
What you say makes some sense.
So you would assert that �Latin Mass� has the advantage of Consistency over the more contemporary �English Mass�?
Tomas: it does have utility. one does not spend decades arguing over whether to translate a word- such as ‘father” to “parent’ or something similar.
I understand what you are saying, but if the majority of the parishioners don�t comprehend the Latin, then isn�t this a rather moot point?
In other words, what is the benefit of removing conflicts over translation, if no one (or the majority) do not comprehend the original language?
Furthermore, doesn�t this simply displace the original problem without actually resolving it? What I mean is, that instead of arguing over the proper English equivalent of some Latin term, wouldn�t the debate simply be over whether the reader (or parishioner) was properly interpreting the Latin?
I guess what I am asking is if there is a tangible benefit to �Latin Mass� or if it is more a matter of aesthetics and personal preference (and I would concede that there is something to be said for �tradition�).
Serpent,
First, interesting name.
Second, one of the observations of the Tridentine Mass is its primary focus on the Sacrifice of the Mass. A criticism of the Novus Ordo Missae is its increased focus on communio and its de-emphasis on the source and summit of our faith: the Eucharist. The Novus Ordo mass has also steadily accumulated spontaneous accretions not formally sanctioned by the Papal Magisterium.
But there are perfectly good Novus Ordo masses presided by priests deeply reverential towards the Eucharist. It’s just a matter of finding them.
Such groups would be much happier if all priests wore cassocks and birettas and all nuns returned to wearing habits and living in convents, instead of actively participating in community affairs and in encouraging social justice.
Yes, I would like to see priests at least wearing collars again when in public. Just like I would like to see nuns and sisters wearing their habits again. Setting themselves apart from the world is part of their vocation!
And I would like to get all those nuns back in the convent – if you want to be an active religious be a sister, not a nun!
Come to Shippensburg, PA if you are looking for reverential Novus Ordo Masses. We have them every weekend!
the serpent,
you seem to belive that it is impossible to learn/understand latin and thus the latin Mass.
again i can only point out that missals exist, showing both english+latin and with illustrations. CD’s also exist as another avenue of learning.
one does not have to be a linguest[sic] to understand the latin Mass, i have been a catholic for only 4 years, i do not speak/read/write latin , yet i am used to the latin Mass.
if people like st. bernadette can apreciate the latin Mass why not todays laity who are on the whole more educated?
The Serpent,
The Mass is not simply a teaching exercise that must be done in the vernacular, as the Enlightenment underpinnings of the early 20th century liturgical movement would have it (cf. Fr. Aidan Nichols’ book _Looking at the Liturgy_) . The Mass is about the act of worship, the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary; the Church has consistently decreed that in the liturgy of the Roman Rite, Latin is the normative language.
Furthermore, it’s been my experience that most parishoners don’t understand the English, either, so I don’t see how it can be argued that liturgy in the vernacular creates comprehension. The Nicene Creed, for example, is said every Sunday, but many Catholics can’t even answer the question of whether Christ is God or not when they’ve SAID THE WORDS THEMSELVES. And again, the words of consecration are clearly pronounced in English, with the priest facing the people, yet many Catholics have absolutely no clue as to what is going on. So whose point is moot?
The latin mass does serve a practical purpose.
I’m not terribly educated and would be at a loss in a coversation debating various translations and how one ought to use them. Indeed, I prefer to attend a “conservative” Novus Ordo Mass, but it was not difficult to learn the little bit of latin necessary to understand and participate in the “traditional” mass. And the purpose it serves is this, no matter were I travel in the world, I can also find a mass that I will be able to understand and participate in. It seems to me that any catholic who travels ought to learn that little bit of latin. I promise it doesn’t hurt 🙂
The vocabulary used in a Latin Mass is pretty small, if you don’t include the readings in your calculation. Unless you are peculiarly dense in the matter of learning languages (I have never done well in language classes), the Mass in Latin should be relatively easy for you to follow after one year of college Latin, or two of high school.
That said, participation is in a way much like participation at a Mass in English or any other language: going to Mass regularly in that language, even if it is your native language, is necessary for you to know the responses, when to stand and sit, when there will be singing, etc. Even after three years of Latin classes, I was a bit clueless at the first Latin Mass I attended.
As for the usefulness of having a Latin Mass: there are people out there like my uncle, who fell away from the faith as a young man before Vatican II. He looked a bit clueless when he came to Mass with us at Christmas. This Mass is almost unrecognizable to him. I know he has considered returning to the practice of his faith, but he is a bit put off by the difference in the external trappings between this liturgy and what he remembers from childhood. If he could go to a Tridentine Mass, I really think he would be more comfortable beginning to go to Mass again.
Quoque, the author of that article is obviously predjudiced against those of us who do speak lingua Latina to each other. Ok, I promise I’m done talking now. Pax et bonum.
Greetings all.
� and thanks to those who replied.
But I must confess I am still a bit confused by this idea of Latin Mass.
I still don�t see why Latin Mass might be �superior� to the regular �English Mass�.
A lot of the comments seemed to center on the notion that the Latin Mass was more true to the original word of God, but isn�t the learning of a language (Latin in this case) primarily the art of learning translation?
In other words, if the problem with English mass is the translation, then doesn�t that same translation problem still exist when an native English speaker learns Latin?
I realize that this issue is more in the spotlight these days. For example, I know that Mel Gibson (who�s been in a news just a little bit lately) is a big proponent of the Latin Mass. I�m just trying to comprehend if there is a logical reason for this, or if it is primarily a matter of aesthetics and/or a return to tradition?
Christine said: Second, one of the observations of the Tridentine Mass is its primary focus on the Sacrifice of the Mass. A criticism of the Novus Ordo Missae is its increased focus on communio and its de-emphasis on the source and summit of our faith: the Eucharist. The Novus Ordo mass has also steadily accumulated spontaneous accretions not formally sanctioned by the Papal Magisterium.
Yes, but that sounds like more a matter of the content of the mass than a difference in the translation. Couldn�t the focus be changed in the �English Mass� without performing the Mass in Latin?
Christine said: First, interesting name.
Why thank you Darling.
� if you only knew �
tomas said: you seem to believe that it is impossible to learn/understand Latin and thus the Latin Mass.
Not at all, my friend. I am just saying that learning the language (Latin) assumes that you must learn the proper translation of Latin terms.
Is this not correct?
John said: The Mass is not simply a teaching exercise that must be done in the vernacular, as the Enlightenment underpinnings of the early 20th century liturgical movement would have it.
A valid hypothesis.
John said: The Mass is about the act of worship, the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary; the Church has consistently decreed that in the liturgy of the Roman Rite, Latin is the normative language.
But surely you must perceive this is circular logic?
Unless you are asserting that Latin is the language that God speaks?
John said: Furthermore, it’s been my experience that most parishioners don’t understand the English, either, so I don’t see how it can be argued that liturgy in the vernacular creates comprehension.
I would concede that this argument is valid, but only if you could demonstrate that the potential for comprehension (of the liturgy) is greater when spoken in a non-native language.
Logic would seem to indicate otherwise.
futurenun: the purpose it serves is this, no matter were I travel in the world, I can also find a mass that I will be able to understand and participate in.
This argument makes a lot of sense.
So in your estimation would you say that Christianity is co-opting Latin as its official �secret language�?
That would be logical in that it would increase the cohesion (sense of community) between (Latin speaking) Christians. Do you agree?
Jane said: As for the usefulness of having a Latin Mass: there are people out there like my uncle, who fell away from the faith as a young man before Vatican II. He looked a bit clueless when he came to Mass with us at Christmas. This Mass is almost unrecognizable to him. I know he has considered returning to the practice of his faith, but he is a bit put off by the difference in the external trappings between this liturgy and what he remembers from childhood.
So you are making the argument that Latin Mass is more traditional?
In all honesty, it makes a certain amount of sense on that basis alone.
But while the notion of �tradition� may be logical in and of itself, just because something is �tradition� doesn�t always mean that it is �correct� or �superior� (does it?).
I wouldn’t say Christianity “co-opted” latin but rather the world’s use of the language gradually fell away until only scholors and catholic nerds were using it 😉
Could it increase solidarity and help form a more solid community? Possibly if we (the catholic community) become willing to bring it back to our schools. Yiddish/Hebrew seems to have played that sort of a role within the Jewish comminity.
I think it would be accurate to say that latin is more tradional since it has been around so much longer. Is it better? Well I think that it has it’s own set of dangers. Yes the “new mass” can be abused much more easily and it places a certain amount of responisbility on the parish because we are now in a position that demands we speak up when we see these abuses creeping in. I have also, believe it or not, been to what I would term and irreverent latin mass. I am sure the priest spoke every word correcty and followed everthing exactly as it should be and he preformed it like just one more chore to get through before the end of the day. Like sweeping the floor. An auctioneer might have been able to do it faster… maybe. So both are open to abuse.
I also have reservations about some attitudes of the more dedicated latin mass followers. They often object to the different translations and changes in wording, as we all know, sometimes even to the point of rebellion. What makes me uncomfortable is that some people seem fall into the mistake of seeing the mass as some sort of a magic spell… an incantation rather than worship and communion with Christ. If the words aren’t just right, if the translation isn’t perfect or the priest doesn’t stand just so, then it is not “valid”… hence implying it is the words spoken by the priest that cause Jesus to be present and not His own Love and Mercy. Can words bind Christ and prevent Him from manifesting Himself among His people? Would Christ withhold Himself from His people simply because of a change in wording or the mistranslation of a verb? Not the Christ I know. Nothing can contain Him and He would never keep Himself from those who truly seek Him.
It is my personal opinion (probably not worth the bandwith it’s written on) that both masses should be available to the people and that everyone should be awake to the dangers of ego, indifference, and legalism.
Dear futurenun,
I found your comments particularly insightful.
Just out of curiosity are you genuinely planning on becoming a Nun, or is that just a handle you use?
futurenun: I wouldn’t say Christianity “co-opted” Latin but rather the world’s use of the language gradually fell away until only scholars and catholic nerds were using it 😉
I stand corrected.
futurenun: Could it increase solidarity and help form a more solid community? Possibly if we (the catholic community) become willing to bring it back to our schools. Yiddish/Hebrew seems to have played that sort of a role within the Jewish community.
From your post the other day this is exactly what I was thinking.
futurenun: I think it would be accurate to say that Latin is more traditional since it has been around so much longer. Is it better? Well I think that it has it’s own set of dangers.
This was my original line of thought. This is why I made my original post.
futurenun: Yes the “new mass” can be abused much more easily and it places a certain amount of responsibility on the parish because we are now in a position that demands we speak up when we see these abuses creeping in.
Hasn�t individual responsibility always been a central part of Christianity? I always considered Christianity a very individualistic religion � would you agree? (Think of Buddhism by comparison)
futurenun: I have also, believe it or not, been to what I would term and irreverent Latin mass. I am sure the priest spoke every word correctly and followed everything exactly as it should be and he preformed it like just one more chore to get through before the end of the day. Like sweeping the floor. An auctioneer might have been able to do it faster… maybe. So both are open to abuse.
I�d agree.
futurenun: I also have reservations about some attitudes of the more dedicated latin mass followers. They often object to the different translations and changes in wording, as we all know, sometimes even to the point of rebellion.
I would say that fanaticism (dogmatism) is dangerous (wicked/evil/immoral) in all of its forms. Wouldn�t you agree?
futurenun: What makes me uncomfortable is that some people seem fall into the mistake of seeing the mass as some sort of a magic spell… an incantation rather than worship and communion with Christ.
Do you believe in magic or the supernatural futurenun? When �God� performs a miracle, does �he� employ �magic� or �supernatural forces� to accomplish the task, or are miracles entirely logical and comprehensible in God�s mind (are miracles logical from God�s point-of-view (perspective))?
futurenun: If the words aren’t just right, if the translation isn’t perfect or the priest doesn’t stand just so, then it is not “valid”… hence implying it is the words spoken by the priest that cause Jesus to be present and not His own Love and Mercy. Can words bind Christ and prevent Him from manifesting Himself among His people? Would Christ withhold Himself from His people simply because of a change in wording or the mistranslation of a verb? Not the Christ I know. Nothing can contain Him and He would never keep Himself from those who truly seek Him.
I find no flaw in your logic here.
futurenun: It is my personal opinion (probably not worth the bandwith it’s written on) that both masses should be available to the people and that everyone should be awake to the dangers of ego, indifference, and legalism.
You are too modest, Darling. Like I said, I find your posts very insightful, and its been a pleasure chatting with you.
Serpent,
Yes, I am going to be a nun! Hopefully I will have finished paying my debts and be in the Passionist Cloister at St. Louis this summer if all goes well. Sadly though, some fairly serious sickness has surfaced in my family and I may have to delay to do my part if there is a need for in home nursing and or hospice care. I just paying down the debt and waiting to see what God’s will is going to be.
Has individual responsibility always been central to Christianity? Within the Catholic Church I would say, ideally, yes. I think I ought to revise my previous statement though. The new mass doesnt place more responsibility on Catholics, it does however, place new responsibilities on us compared to what we used to have regardless of which language we attend. Responsibilities we aren’t quite used to yet. I think this is because what a person can reasonably be held responsible for has changed over the years. Would it have been reasonable 1,000 or 500 years ago to hold a largely illiterate community responsible for knowing what church law had to say in regards to how mass should be celebrated? Probably not, I would guess that an average person in the middle ages was being personally responsible when they made sure to take full advantage of the teaching available to them via the more learned priests and religious.
I suspect that the trouble arose when society, on the whole became literate, but continued to view knowledge of the church, bible etc as something limited to religious. So when Vatican II came along suddenly different people in authority were saying all kinds of different things depending on what was (is) motivating their personal interpretation of the those documents, people got really confused and, well frankly, petulant 🙂
What do you mean we have to read church documents? What do you mean we have read the bible? Evangelize…isn’t that your job?? What do you mean I have to know why I believe what I believe? Individual responsibility suddenly became a lot more work; it certainly had never involved finding a charitable way to explain to father why pumpkin masses are not appropriate. It also never involved explaining to other Catholics why Latin Mass it a perfectly acceptable and beautiful way to worship God.
I would say that fanaticism (dogmatism) is dangerous (wicked/evil/immoral) in all of its forms. Wouldn’t you agree?
Hard to say, I’d probably take each case individually. One man’s fanaticism is another’s heroic virtue. Was Maximililan Kolbe a fanatic or a saint when he held out his arm to his executioner?
Do you believe in magic or the supernatural futurenun? When “God” performs a miracle, does “he” employ “magic” or “supernatural forces” to accomplish the task, or are miracles entirely logical and comprehensible in God’s mind (are miracles logical from God’s point-of-view (perspective))?
That’s an interesting question. I used to be one of those “Neo-Pagans” before I converted. Based on my experience no I don’t believe in magic. I think it is just a trick of the devil to appeal to our egos, to make us think we do not have to depend on God or even take His place, that we do not have to submit to His will. When God performs miracles, even via a human being, it is always understood that the miracle originated from God’s power and mercy, not the vehicle used to manifest the miracle (saints, springs etc.) True miracles bring man closer to God were as “magic” tires to deny any need for God, giving credit to the magician. Is the force God wields when he performs the miracles supernatural? Yes, in as far as it surpasses our understanding of the working of nature. Is it logical? I am sure it is. Just because I don’t understand how something works doesn’t mean it functions without logic. God is perfect logic as well as perfect mercy and love. If you want to discern if something is from God just ask yourself is it logical. Our God is not a God of nonsense. Fortunately it is generally pretty easy to find the logic in God’s miracles… politicians however, are another story.
I have enjoyed chatting with you as well.
futurenun (Christine): Yes, I am going to be a nun!
Very admirable. 🙂
futurenun (Christine): Sadly though, some fairly serious sickness has surfaced in my family �
My prayers are with you.
futurenun (Christine): The new mass doesnt place more responsibility on Catholics, it does however, place new responsibilities on us compared to what we used to have regardless of which language we attend. Responsibilities we aren’t quite used to yet. I think this is because what a person can reasonably be held responsible for has changed over the years. Would it have been reasonable 1,000 or 500 years ago to hold a largely illiterate community responsible for knowing what church law had to say in regards to how mass should be celebrated? Probably not, I would guess that an average person in the middle ages was being personally responsible when they made sure to take full advantage of the teaching available to them via the more learned priests and religious.
The church has �evolved� over the years. We have �progressed�.
Would you agree?
Do you believe that it is possible God might also evolve over Time?
futurenun (Christine): What do you mean I have to know why I believe what I believe? Individual responsibility suddenly became a lot more work; it certainly had never involved finding a charitable way to explain to father why pumpkin masses are not appropriate. It also never involved explaining to other Catholics why Latin Mass it a perfectly acceptable and beautiful way to worship God.
Would you agree that Human beings have access to more information today then they had access to in the past? Is this a consistent trend? Is it likely that we will have access to even greater information in the future?
futurenun (Christine): [Fanaticism dangerous?] Hard to say, I�d probably take each case individually. One man�s fanaticism is another�s heroic virtue. Was Maximililan Kolbe a fanatic or a saint when he held out his arm to his executioner?
When I used the term �Fanaticism� what I meant was a greater devotion to an Idea than devotion to the Almighty.
God is the embodiment of the Truth � would you concur?
Ergo, if something is True in reality it is the result of God�s hand.
And to deny that which is the product of God�s hand is surely a form of blasphemy (conceit, arrogance, hubris).
futurenun (Christine): [Are God�s miracles the result of �Magic� or �Logos�?] That�s an interesting question. I used to be one of those �Neo-Pagans� before I converted.
Could you explain what a �Neo-pagan� is for me?
futurenun (Christine): Based on my experience no I don�t believe in magic. I think it is just a trick of the devil to appeal to our egos, to make us think we do not have to depend on God or even take His place, that we do not have to submit to His will.
You are speaking my language Darling.
What are you thoughts on �free will�?
As to the Devil and �magic� � I do not believe that �magic� exist. All things (all events) are the result of entirely logical processes. That we do not always perceive the underlying logical process does not imply (in any way) that things are happening �magically� or randomly.
In regard to the Devil�s power � I would say that banality is the source of the power of evil.
futurenun (Christine): When God performs miracles, even via a human being, it is always understood that the miracle originated from God�s power and mercy, not the vehicle used to manifest the miracle (saints, springs etc.)
I agree.
futurenun (Christine): True miracles bring man closer to God were as �magic� tires to deny any need for God, giving credit to the magician.
I agree.
futurenun (Christine): Is the force God wields when he performs the miracles supernatural? Yes, in as far as it surpasses our understanding of the working of nature. Is it logical? I am sure it is. Just because I don�t understand how something works doesn�t mean it functions without logic.
Precisely.
futurenun (Christine): God is perfect logic as well as perfect mercy and love.
I am in complete agreement.
futurenun (Christine): If you want to discern if something is from God just ask yourself is it logical. Our God is not a God of nonsense. Fortunately it is generally pretty easy to find the logic in God�s miracles� politicians however, are another story.
Like I said Ms. Christine, you are an insightful individual.
Good luck with your plans. I have no doubt that a bright destiny awaits you in any event.
Hopefully we can chat again.
LoL! I am going to send you a real email. What are your thoughts on free will! quick 50 words or less LOL! A document of that magnitute would crash the server… if I could even manage to write it in the first place