Yesterday Mark Shea posted:
conundrum
Periodically I meet Christians who tell me that they believe in Once Saved Always Saved and that if you ask Jesus to be your personal Lord and savior then you can’t lose your salvation. They warn me darkly that the Catholic Church is a sinister system of works salvation and so forth.
My response is typically, “Okay. I’ll do what you say right now.” Then I stop, and pray (with all seriousness) for Jesus to be my personal Lord and savior. It is, after all, what I want. Then I go on my way to Mass. After all, if I can’t lose my salvation, then why should it matter if I do?
This is a question I have pondered and asked before. While I have a pretty limited experience with apologetics with non-Catholics I have talked to some who have come to my door. It is rather strange that in my 40 years as a non-theist, I never had anybody come to my door to pass out materials or to promote their church. It was only within the last six years that this has happened. I have had mainly Baptists and a Jehovah’s Witness or two, but so far no Mormons. I figure that since I spent the first five years of my life in Salt Lake City, Utah; I have some kind of Mormon patina that protects me from their missionaries.
I greatly respect those who put their time and effort into door-to-door evangelization to try to preach the Gospel. Normally someone will knock and then hand you materials for their Church. I will then tell them that I believe in Christ and that I already go to church. Then they will ask “What church do you go to?” When I respond “Immaculate Conception”, I always notice their expression that seems to be part sorrow and part trying to be patient with someone who is so lost. I get this feeling that if I said “I go down to the stone pillars in the park and engage in pagan sacrifices” that I would get exactly the same look.
When I get the ‘If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” I reply that I have already done that. If I get the Catholic Church believes in salvation by works or in Mary Worship. I will try to tell them where they are mistaken about Catholic beliefs and practices and recommend that they get a Catechism so that they correctly know the doctrines they are critiquing. Then I will ask “If I am already saved since I already confess with my mouth and believe in my heart the Jesus is Lord, then why does it matter what church I go to.”
If I am asked to pray the Sinners Prayer with them I will grab my Bible and say “I am unfamiliar with that prayer, exactly what chapter/verse is it in?” The same thing goes to the phrase “Personal Lord and Savior”, it is amazing home many non-Biblical expression are used by those believing in Sola Scriptura. Normally after this they leave, if not I will ask them “Without using tradition tell me how we know which books belong in the Bible.” I have never got any farther than that with anyone.
4 comments
It is simple. We know which books are in the Bible because Father Martin Luther infallibly proclaimed, no wait, we know this because a Jewish council, concerned that Christians were using several books to prove that Jesus was the Messiah, no… um. See, here, it says “let no man add to the Sacred Scripture.” Anyone knows that means that seven of the books that Jesus recognized as Sacred Scripture are obviously Romish additions, which is why the Greek Orthodox rej… oh, no…uh, let me ask my Pastor who is the only one who can interpret scripture.
You may have gotten a lot farther than you think.
Seriously, Bill, isn’t that about what it ends with in Prottieland? I have never had one answer this question in anyway closer than this, and have been amazed by how many times they throw the irrelevant Bible passage in.
However, I leave the apologetics to those with a better bedside manner. I get about four lines into it, and start having visions of Blessed Tomas Luis de Torquemada.
You are correct about the “once saved always saved” deal. I’ve found that they cop out by saying anyone who was once saved yet apostasized was an example of someone who was never really saved, but just looked like they were.
From a “sola Scriptura” viewpoint: St Jude warns the Church against those who are “twice dead” in their midst. That cannot refer to evil people who have died physically, who would qualify for “twice dead” [both spiritually & physically], but would not qualify as having to be warned about operating in the midst of the Church. It could only refer to those who have been dead spiritually, then become alive, and then died again. St Paul refers to some such persons in particular when he warns againt them in his other letters.